Can one use Invoking on a conjured Ally Spirit?  Would it be productive to do so?

Also, I'm kind of confused... can a spirit ONLY have the powers listed under its description?  So I couldn't have a Guardian Spirit with say... the Realistic Form power?

Also on the Guardian Spirit... they have the Blades skill... but wouldn't they need Psychokinesis to actually be able to pick up and use a real blade?

Invoking is used on bound spirits. The bound spirits are then enhanced into great form spirits.  An Ally Spirit is another matter all together and invoking cannot be used as summoning an ally and invoking are two separate metamagic abilities. Invoking is used to improve normal spirits. A ritual of change is used to improve allies.

Spirits have their listed powers and optional powers that a GM can assign to them.

For the guardian spirit is use it's blade skill, it would have to manifest and physically pick up the weapon.

I'm pretty sure guardian spirits have the natural melee weapon power, and the natural melee weapon skill.  For something like a guardian spirit, I'm pretty sure that would manifest as a sword/spear/whatever, it would just do the damage of their natural melee weapon instead of a particular kind of physical weapon.

I dunno, Natural Weapon is pretty explicit in being claws or teeth or the like. Moreover, it is, like Psychokinesis, an optional power for Guardian spirits. It also says that it uses Unarmed Combat or Exotic Ranged. I'd be inclined to think that if it didn't have Psychokinesis it would have to manifest, yes, or use an alchera sword if it were fighting on the astral plane.

Actually, you can invoke ally spirits by choosing to invoke during the Binding portion of creating an Ally BUT (and this is a HUGE but) an ally spirit will not have any great form powers to choose from because an ally spirit technically is not a spirit of any one particular type. Instead, Allies are more like chimera patched together from abilities that the typical spirits of your tradition are capable of having. So your ally can't have the Endowment power because it's not technically a Great Form Task spirit but your Ally can gain the ability to use his abilities as LOS Area effects in the event that you happen to score 4+ hits on the Invoking test since that's not an ability specific to a Great Form type.

Confused yet?

Street Magic pg 57

Note that only bound spirits may be invoked; watcher spirits cannot be great form.

Street Magic pg 104

If the binding is successful, the initiate immediately pays Karma equal to the cost of the ally spirit (see Creating an Ally Spirit, above). The character must expend the predefined amount of Karma or the ritual fails. The initiate now has his very own unique ally spirit.


Bound spirits are not ally spirits, therefore they cannot be invoked.

Bound is a state, not a spirit type.

Anyway, Page 104, Street Magic:
Immediately after summoning, the ally spirit must be bound following the normal
rules for binding (p. 180, SR4)

Sounds pretty bound to me. What with the binding and all.

Shut up Whip, you can't invoke your ally because I'll kick you in the nuts if you try it!

Frankly, I would almost expect a GM to kick me in the nuts for trying that one. Great Form powers or not, I'm not so sure how comfortable I'd feel with a friendly Spirit with a LOS AOE Engulf on the team who is also extra resistant to banishing. Especially since if I were going to go that route I'd probably suck it up and make the Spirit pretty high powered and then burn Edge to make an automatic critical success on the drain/binding test.

To make a RAW argument, a "bound spirit" in invoking arguably does not refer to an ally spirit.  Sure, an ally spirit is bound, but it is not simply a "bound spirit."  It is an "ally spirit," and many of the rules that apply to bound spirits do not apply to it - i.e. it has no services and it has extra stuff you can give it.  Furthermore, the ally spirit is limited by its spirit formula, which is not allowed to include great form powers or special abilities.  Finally, an ally spirit costs karma.  There is a karma cost for all its starting abilities, as well as any enhancements (see "Enhancing an Ally").  It doesn't make sense that you would need make changes to the formula and spend karma for most enhancements, except that for some reason you can invoke for 0 karma and 0 yen...  The RAW might technically let you do it, but an ally spirit is so different from your basic "bound spirit" that I think it's pretty clear that you can't invoke an ally.

What I'd really want to do with invoking is have Tear learn channeling and invoking, and then bind her a great form plant spirit with regeneration...  Regeneration isn't de facto invincibility like it was in SR3, but *anything* that circumvents the normal healing rules is amazing.  Healing at the end  of every turn?  Fuhgetaboudit.

I just call them as I see 'em. After investigating over at dumpshock the buzz is that the freelancer who wrote the Ally Spirit rules once made it a bit clearer that you cannot Invoke an Ally Spirit but the SR4 line director disagreed with him. Creative edits were made and voila, Invoked Ally Spirits are born. Personally, I always thought you could Invoke Allies, because the RAW prevents them from having Great Form powers which prevents the most egregious abuses (like getting Endowed at no cost of services, for example) and there isn't really any reason given why you couldn't. Besides, saying they don't owe services is kind of silly because if anything an Ally Spirit is a tailored spirit that is extra bound. Whether that's a good idea or not is another matter entirely.

To tell the truth, I think a great form permanent follower that you pay assloads of karma to get is a lot less abusive than a great form me, especially when it only costs me a few thousand yen to make.  Thanks to the assloads of karma, and the ease of summoning throw-away spirits at your leisure, ally spirits are already a pretty disfavored option IMO.  So what the hell, let them be invoked, I bet still nobody will use them...  Only thing I would ever want one for is to have an inhabiting ally spirit in a kitty cat familiar, since having a sentient, magical cat would be fun.

Exactly how I see it. An Invoked Ally Spirit gets minor stat boosts, a Banishing resistance check and, most importantly, an upgrade to LOS A on many of their powers; the big advantage to the ally is and remains the unlimited amount of services for things like sustaining spells and Aid Study, not raw power. If you want a Spirit capable of waltzing into a LoneStar HQ and ruining everyone's morning coffee, then a Great Form Plant Spirit running around in a Plasteel Homunculi is still the way to go.

Plasteel Homunculi?