Hmmm... Ok, a few points here.

Nice try with the 'feelings' bit, Tear.  The entire disagreement can be seen as what everyone 'feels' is correct. 

As for SR4 combat, I'm getting the feeling that folks are missing a few things.  While I won't go arguing about attack roll TN mods (And I could, because I've always had heavy opinions in the past, I won't because I don't see it as being the real relevant issue), I will talk about the power level of SR4 firearms.

The best illustration of SR4's combat deadliness is in light pistols.  SR3 light pistols did about 6L damage.  So, if someone had an armor of 6 (ridiculously easy), they soaked against TN of 2.  Plus, it wasn't so hard to get an ork with body of 10 and balistic armor of 10.  Thus, even if you used APDS (SR3's ammo of choice), they could still roll against a TN of 2.  End result?  No one seriously carries a light pistol, and everyone switches to APDS ASAP!

Now, let's look at SR4.  Remember, the defender always wins on ties.  Thus, a 4 DV weapon will require you to soak at LEAST 5 DV (DV + 1 Net success).  That's before you consider that the ammo of choice for SR4 will not be APDS, but instead will be Ex-Ex.  So, that makes it a base damage of 6 from a light pistol. 

As for Nes's 20 dodge dice pool, that's only if you're using full defense so your dodge (Ranged) 4 (+2) kicks in.  Not to mention that said char is a physad, and that the rest of the common Joe Shadowrunners would have way less reflex dice.  So, most everyone else will be defending with reflex 7-9 versus 17 dice attacks. Ouch.
 

Feelings are fine.  But the fact that something makes you 'feel bad' is not a valid way to arrive at a conclusion, at least not as the sole basis from your argument.  Because all your other points have been dealt with, all that's left is your feeling.  Your line of reasoning is that you feel bad, therefore this must be changed, which is a non sequitur.  We are not arguing about whose feelings are the most valid, we are arguing about which solution is the most logical.


We have all been talking about the dodge and damage mechanics for a year or so, I don't think we're missing it.  You're correct that it was easier to completely absorb damage in SR3 than it is in SR4.  In many cases in SR4, it's just not possible to soak all the damage.  Tank characters are basically a joke in SR4 - the only thing tough people can really ignore is pistols.  The real tanks are people with mega dodge pools, with high damage resistance just as an afterthought.

Regardless, how does the game's deadliness argue in favor of chargen limits?  You might limit the ability for people to have big dice pools for attacking, but you would place an equal limit on their ability to defend.  Net change?  Zero.  In sum, you want a system that remedies your bad feeling about people starting off as experts, which will not correct any broken game mechanic or even alter the balance of power in any significant way.  Don't forget that the only difference between a starting character with a 4 skill and 4 attribute and a veteran with a 6 skill and 6 attribute is just 4 dice - 1.33 successes.  With the nature of SR4 dice, while an extra average 1.33 successes is great, it is not a large power gap.  You are proposing a minor power fix in response to phantom problems with the game system - it is too pointless to be further considered.

Tear summarizes my mind, truly she is closer to the Homer.

Because I 'feel bad'?  Apparently, you don't understand.

Look.  There are things in this world that can not be explained in pure mathematical terms.  This is especially true when it comes to games.  Anyone who has ever been watching the RPG world should have noticed by now the struggle between realism and simplicity.  The idea RPG game is one that is both simple to play and yet also creates scenes that *FEEL* real.

Let me show you my thoughts so you'll understand. 

We'll start by creating a character in SR3.  Now, it can be said that every character has at least one, possibly two, skills that 'define' the character.  Examples would be the quick talking face, the sweetly seductive elven beauty, the LMG toting merc, the SMG shooting Sam, the katana wielding Physad, etc.  Our character is going to be an unarmed combat master with Unarmed combat at 6 (for the sake of simplicity, I'm going to not talk about Cannon Companion martial arts, magic, or bio/cyberware).

 So, we take him out of chargen, and we run him out to play.  We discover that the Yakuza are throwing a martial arts tournament, and so we go enter.  Round one, we're faced off against a large, well built street sam.  We suddenly discover that while our 6 in unarmed combat is good, that other guy has unarmed combat at 9! 

Now, if you walk out of chargen with a skill at 7, then you know that there's no one with an 8.  If you walk out with a 6, you know that there is no one likely to have a 7 running around. Raising one's defining skill is a thing of the past.  And with it go all of the fun that comes with getting a 'superior' skill level.  No more finding that lost ninja grandmaster.  No more running through insane training sessions to discover that secret that gives you the edge.  All of it is now gone.

That's the difference I'm talking about.  And it's a real shame.  I'm sure if you're one of the 'got to have it now' crowd, you don't understand.  But there are still some of us out here who remember that the fun part is the journey, and not the high skill level.  Everything has been condensed down to a few poorly written lines in a bg, and that's just a shame.  I'm sorry if you can't understand that. 

Math does not equal a game.

This is ridiculous.

NO to any caps.  The character generation is fine as-is in this regard.

I don't think this game in its current incarnation is meant for the sort of player characters you're talking about.  Like you said it is deadlier.  IMHO it's designed for short character life-spans.

Besides, you're a one-trick pony already, following the rules, if you go for a skill at 6 or 7.  And one-trick ponies are genetically inferior.  That's a fact.

I've been watching this thread but have refrained from commenting cause everyone has pretty much made all the points I would have. In terms of the current example given by Rat he is right but I don't see why anyone would want to spend that many BPs on maxing out one thing and having a one trick pony out of CG. Almost every character I've built I take the 2 5's, why cause I'd rather have a couple things I can do real well than 1 which I'm world class at. Plus you can buy qualities like exceptional attribute and whatever the skill one is. On top of that I never have all the cyber/bio or spells depending on the pcs I come out of CG with or the skills I want. With the current BP system everyone has a nice level playing ground to go with, you can be exceptional and kick my ass with martial arts, I bet I can gun you down with SMGs. Thats the way the new system is, and if somehow you do manage to maximize everything you want coming out of CG then learn to be a decker/rigger anyone can. There are tons of ways to grow and become exceptional in SR4, even when you can have attributes and skills over 4 coming out of CG.

If someone wants the "satisfaction" of raising their 4s to 6s, they should just take a bunch of skill groups and leave those who wish to specialize the hell alone. I know that's what I'll probably do; the min-maxed generalist is basically my tabletop stock and trade.

PH -10.

Yes, you don't like it, so you want to change it.  "I dislike it therefore it must be changed" is a valid argument to make, but it is a logical non sequitur.  Your dislikes are not a valid basis for systemwide changes because they are not one iota more valuable than anyone else's.  That is why you do not present a useful basis on which your proposal can stand; ergo it must fall.

I would point out again, however, that the character who can start with a 7 is a crappy character.  He'll go to the martial arts tournament and clean house because he is a legendary martial artist, one of the best in the world.  But you know what he isn't?  He isn't anything else.  The cost of taking skills to the absolute max is astronomical, and ultimately a total waste of BP.  The last few dice costs a fortune in points that you'd be better off spending in making yourself more versatile.  I think that it will be incredibly rare for anyone to start with a natrual skill of 7 in anything.  It will be common to see pools of say 5( 8 ) attribute + 5( 8 ) skill w/sepcialization and reflex recorder.  Dodge scores can get higher, as can social skills thanks to physad powers, but that's about it.

Regardless, it doesn't matter if a character is an expert at something.  The GM doesn't have to 'win' to make the game good.  If a character has martial arts 7, there are LOTS of ways to make a martial arts tournament interesting.  They could make him fight a crooked 'bonus round' against two people, or they could have a mage stunbolt him from within the crowd, or any number of things...  We don't need to limit chargen just to let the GM make enemies who are better than us.  The GM can always give us headaches by being clever, no matter how powerful we get.  I've said it before, and I'll repeat it - your proposal fixes a system which is not broken, it feels a need which you have imagined, it creates a dynamic which is unecessary.  Furthermore, the the playerbase unanimously detests it.  Now might be the time to concede defeat.

Yes, people should worry about what they are doing and leave everyone else alone.

Wow I agree with Absinthe...soon the skies shall darken the seas shall boil and the four horseman of the Apocolypse shall stalk the eart bringing plague, famine, war and death.

Dogs and cats, living together- Mass hysteria!

Anthrax is lazy. Toxoplasmosis chews on the curtain pull cords.