No house rules in beta!

Everybody dies!

*Badda badda badda badda bang bang boom*

...anyways, what Tear said.

A huge hunk of metal you used to replace your arm on your normal body, to me, should not forseeably be better than having your entire body tuned and enhanced until it's one finely honed balanced kinetic machine.

Lest we forget the lessons learned on Denver with SR3 Houserules to cyberlimbs.

There are far too many people there that have 12 strength poison spurs and 18 body, just because they have two tricked out cyberarms, and have stats of all 3s.

I just feel that people are only looking at the statistical end results of cyberlimbs and comparing them to a physically powerful character with boosted attributes yet are totally disregarding the work it takes to get there. A toned, physically tough athlete who uses biotechnology to push himself to metahumanity's limits is going to outclass a guy with a cyberlimbs, but he pays for that privelege with lots of bps. Meanwhile, Joe Hacker who spends all his time rotting on the couch with his commlink can just stroll on down to a black clinic and pay some essence and cred for the privelege of being able to bench 250 and eat nails for breakfast... as long as he's willing to pay with his own flesh. As such, it's easy on the BP. Going with cyberlimbs is like joining the Dark side of the force: it's a quick path to power that ends in metal limbs and people being terrified of you when you show up unexpected at Lando's dinner party. It's not necessarily any stronger in the long run, but damn is it affordable.

(Note: I don't have SR4, don't have any idea re: bp, cost, whatever)

What it boils down to, based on the conversations that I've seen, is whether people can actually RP correctly  .  This is the crucial aspect.

IF RP incorporates the fear, the horror and the disgust that a Jax look-alike (Mortal Kombat) would draw, then the simple fact that its more powerful stat wise is irrelevant. The drawback would be from PCs and NPCs.

Personally, however, I have little/no faith in that sort of thing being RPed appropriately. 

I don't think fear, horror, or disgust are generally applicable to cyberlimbs.  Remember, by 2070, cyberlimbs are OLD news.  Cyberskulls might still be scary, but limbs are no big deal.

If anything, cyberlimbs are going to be a low class thing - people don't hate or fear them, but the upper echelons certainly disdain them.  Who gets cyberlimbs?  Gangers who want to look cool, soldiers and pit fighters who want a utilitarian replacement for a lost limb on the cheap, shadowrunners who want to conceal illegal things...  Cyberlimbs are not bad in that people will be afraid of them - they're more like gratuitous piercings and tattoos are today.  They might have some intimidation value, but they don't illicit fear, horror, or disgust in regular people.

Dude, that's fucking classic.

In response to tear, though. I agree that certainly not everyone would be terrified of machines, however it must be said that Obvious cyberarms are just...tacky, low-class, and not at all pleasant to look at. There's tubing and joints that hum and whirr. It's cold to the touch and looks dangerous just to be near, not to mention it probably gets caught on clothing all the time.

As sexy as body modification is in 2070, it appears clear that the stuff that looks and feels real, bio-augs, nano-tats are much preferable than cold unpredictable metal and plastic.

I mean, in the end, who's gonna want to hire a call-girl who's got a huge metal mitt? You're risking something alot harder to replace than a limb if you hire steel-hand Molly for a quickie.

Not only that, but obvious cyberlimbs need regular refits, repairs, polish, etc. They don't self-regulate like internal or bioware, at least not to the same level. Cyberlimbs can carry various weapons and devices that might make someone look at a person with full cyberlimbs suspiciously, at least.

Cyberlimbs aren't like wheelchairs are today, the social stigma attached to being 'handicapped' is gone, considering that there aren't really handicapped people anymore, at least not as much, due to the miracles of cyberware. They're likely to be searched or questioned and detained if they act suspicious, more than someone who looks to be of meat, at least.

Just some random thoughts.

But imagine what Steel-Hand Molly could do with a fully articulate, double jointed, able to rotate 360 degree hand.

First off, cyberlimbs are one of the oldest forms of cyberware. They've been around since 2019. With the Sixth World's mortality and poverty rate being what it is (Hello VITAS-2!), it's probably quite fair to say that the majority of people don't remember a world without cyberlimbs. The book points out that they are essentially outdated "legacy" tech at this point. As such, I would think the range of reactions to cyberlimbs could vary from shock to apathy to wonder to pity and all points in between.

Also, as far as maintenance and reliability goes, yes, cyberlimbs can and should need more checkups and maintenance than your meat limbs. But, to say that they are demonstrably less reliable than any other cyberware cannot be determined just by referencing the core book, which is pretty much silent on this subject. Afterall, cyberlimbs are a tried and true piece of tech by this point. Hell, if anything, it's bioware that has the unreliable track record; it's the newer technology and is only now becoming popular because many of the kinks have finally been worked out. In SR3, it wasn't uncommon for people with bioware such as platelet factories to pick up finger tip compartments and other smuggling tools just to make sure they don't get caught without their bloodthinners or other medications.  Platelet factories are nice, but only as long as they're not giving you a stroke. My impression is that barring glitches or severe wounds, everyday cyberlimb maintenance costs are probably covered by lifestyle just like gasoline, oil changes and cab fare. There isn't any costs or rules involved except for the ones made up by GMs for it as appropriate.

I'm talking about for the purposes of RP.

Someone with a cyberlimb probably has a kit, and a wrench, and a screwdriver and an owner's manual. Not the same, exactly, with some other form of ware.

1.  Getting 4 cyberlimbs and a 1 body has huge drawbacks.  Namely the fact that your head and torso have a body of 1.  Also, you'll end up using average attributes which include the 1's from your torso. You'd end up needing a cybertorso, which isn't going to leave you much essence for anything else.

2.  The book says that cyberlimbs are viewed as crude and outdated.  It doesn't say that they actually are crude and outdated.  Big difference.

3.  I know all about "the work it takes to get there".  It's all I've ever done on Shadowrun.  Any time I've ever thought about creating a char with cyberlimbs, all I have to do is look at the rules, realize how pathetic they are, and the desire goes away like a kid who realizes that his Christmas presents were stolen. 

All I'm talking about is allowing obvious cyberlimbs to at least reach a 9 in all three values, which would make it at least equal to other augmentations. 

I see what you're getting at there. As much as I think most people overstate the crappiness of cyberlimbs, capacity is one area where I'm quite ready to accede that Fanpro has made a mess of things. Frankly, I think cyberlimb attribute augmentations shouldn't increase in capacity costs once you exceed rating 4. Capacity costs higher than that very quickly become utterly unmanageable, even in obvious limbs. My personal belief is that Fanpro didn't have the balls to risk confusing everyone by coming up with a capacity cost list detailed enough to make sense for each type of cyberlimb available. For example, isn't it kind of goofy that you can't fit more than 2 fingertip compartments into a synthetic hand but you can easily fit in an entire cyberholdout or set of handrazors? I mean, really, unless you got something like a monowhip in that bad boy, a fingertip compartment is basically a fancy pez dispenser.

My stance with cyberlimbs isn't that I think everything's peachy, it's that I think they're pretty much a non-issue until augmentation comes out. I'd rather spend my time on trying to cajole the staff here into things letting us create custom traditions in beta. 

All I want is chargen.  Honest. 

Heh. I feel like creating a tradition -is- part of chargen, but it's hardly anything to really get worked up about. I'm not sure the character I really, really want to play is the same guy I want to bring into beta anyway. It just eats at me a bit since I got a tradition written up as well as a potential subject for my magical thesis. Yes, I have too much free time. 

Yeah, but at least with chargen you'd have a place to sit and stare at the walls while you waited.