I've done that.   


There isn't a way that this rule is going to change, although I may begin inforcing it in backgrounds...  But just because you can't rape doesn't mean you can't just beat the crap out of them instead of killing.  You're skipping a couple steps there.

But, with all this talk about PKing people over their clothes, why don't you all think up a list of appropriate clothing/reactions for the areas of the city?  Write up a primer or suggestions we can put with our Description Examples about what should be worn where.  It'd get this back on topic too.

A couple of things here.

1)  I've been in more than a gazillion fights that didn't even come close to PKing, it was just good ol' fun PVP.  From car battles, all the way up to shoot-outs in a restaurant where we were both well aware of the other and shot up the restaurant more than the other.  It was pretty amazing, we even compared +sheets just so we knew what and when to kinda roll karma so the other wouldn't die, just get severely hurt.  To everyone else it looked like 'yet another pkilling' that they all hate.  in the end though it spawned some awesome stuff and it wasn't with Staffer input or anything, just us.  We turned in the log of it and they decided to actually have the restaurant closed for remodeling and whatnot.  We later on became allies, but never friends ICly.  I've been the weaker and beat on someone I knew was around 400+ karma because my character would do it.  I've had plenty of characters get picked on.  Though I've also had at least 6, maybe more, characters pkilled and usually by staff alts, or friends of staffers most of which included some manner of OOC/IC crossover.  And yet, I'm not bitter about and will participate in PVP as often as people want to do so.

2)  One of the issues with Shadowrun is the long bitter history people have, sticking them to ideas of elfbians being uncool and unstylistic clothing being awesome (and in theme).  When the game started it was the boring version of Cyberpunk.  It even had the crappiest system really.  2nd Edition included a lot better of a situation and managed to get most of the game under a good amount of power versus limitations scaling that it was fun.  Still, though, playing the black trenchcoat wearing Matrix ripoff sort of iconographic character meant you'd be cool.  That started to change in third edition when they introduced a lot of various armors that were sleek and sexy, and some pictures showing off all the crazyness available in clothing to the average runner.  Remember though the game was still not as open about sexy clothing, or sleek looks, as Cyberpunk which had a clearly defined sense of style for each kind of character you might make.  Cyberpunk even has fashion books for your characters.  Shadowrun, even in 4th edition, is trying to catch up to its 2 decade older game in style methods.  If you look at page 46 and 47 you'll find the Fashion section of the book.  Its vague, but it tells you at least one thing, "Clothes that show off your bodymods/tech stuff/tattoos/etc are going to be more in than clothing that hides that stuff."  Seeing as that's the current trend.  Gangers, business people, etc, are all gonna want that sorta stuff at varying levels.

3)  No one can agree to let modern ideas drop from their eyes.  So a micro-skirt shouldn't be really considered sexy even anymore in 2070, its just a skirt.  Legs are legs.  You can go down to your local 'trix pub and plug into a computerized character who'll beat that ass anyday.  You can take drugs that'll make you feel better than the micro-skirt will, and with all those people with 'ware walking around you can't tell who's gonna be a killer and who's going to be some woosy pansy.  You can't even tell whether or not the clothing is armored (if its only armored clothing anyways), but maybe you don't care?  Maybe you're against women in short clothing, or men who wear fishnet shirts.  The modern idea though, in general, about women being skanks for little clothing has been mostly removed and evened out with men.  In modern times we are so against women showing off their skin that most bikinis sold in the US are considered indecent exposure if a police officer wanted to press charges, women can't go topless even in boiling heat, but men can in pretty much every state and they can wear speedos without breaking laws.  To even begin to think that  bull is around still is kind of ridiculous when we think about the emergence of magic, metahumanity, corp wars, free spirits, toxic spirits, Lonestar, shadowrunners, etc.  I'm not arguing that there are no prudes still out there, but most MU*s I've ever played on definitely seem more stuck in modern morality instead of pulling back and really thinking about it for a bit.

4)  A general guideline for clothes:
Working Downtown:  Corp facilities require nice clothing, and by nice I mean more expensive brands and styles than not.  So you might still come in with your mohawk and green hair, but your clothing needs to be of a nice quality even if its not a suit.  In fact in most places suits probably aren't what you are going to wear.
Working high up Corporate:  Since most higher ups in corporates tend to also be part of illegal organizations, which also tend to be more traditional and liking to stand out, the old way of standing out still would work.  A very nice suit or dress, that'll make you stick out and show off that you are powerful (or at least rich).
Gangs:  Colors are important in gangs, and nothing boring.  I'd imagine most gangs have a themed set of clothing.  Maybe this one likes wearing camo, and that one likes wearing black vinyl, or this one likes dressing up like mythological monsters.  Whatever the theme/colors are you gotta stick to it.
Touristville:  The chic versions of street clothes is probably the number one thing here.  Or at least as a guidepost for fashion in the area.  Most people won't have the more expensive stuff, but they want it, and they see it all on a regular basis.
Barrens:  Most of the barrens you can probably get away with middle-ish cost in clothes and style is still really important.  Most important here, I'd imagine, is making sure to not wear the wrong colors in the wrong areas or be of the wrong species.  You wander into gang turf of Orks who wear green bandannas around their wrists and they hate elves... and you come in with your elf in neon pink... you're begging for a beating.

In general I do not think amount of cloth matters in any of the situations with exception perhaps with the Yakuza, as they are very traditional in their thoughts on women.  This is just a rough guess of what I know about modern fashion (which is pretty extensive) and applying it to what I read in the SR4 manual as well as view in the pictures they show us on various pages.

If you walk into the Barrens proper wearing an evening gown and diamonds, or a tuxedo with platinum cufflinks, be prepared for trouble. Either from other PCs or staff. Which you may be looking for, and then it's all good.

As for going bare breasted, I have two words for you: acid rain.

I disagree. In a corp facility the trashman could probably get away wearing disposable flats. I doubt that most higher ups would be part of an illegal organization. The green mohawk might be fine for a hacker who sits in a darkened room jacked in all day, but not for someone who has to deal with the public or higher ups.

Not all higher ups are a part of illegal organizations like the Yakuza or Mafia, some just partake in illegal activities of hiring shadowrunners.  But yeah, they aren't all illegal.

I think green hair would be fine, so would a shaved head, and nanobot tattoos.  But a foot high mohawk might be a bit off. 

It must be noted that sofar, all the corp types I've seen in the book, even when they're missing an eye, tattoed, have visible datajacks and cyberarms, are Orks, or Elves, or Japanese, or are carrying guns, are wearing SOME kind of clothing I would label as a 'suit'. Now whether it's tieless, or industrial, or Japanese, or good ol' Euro-American style, it's still a suit.

This seems to tell me that tats, hair, and 'ware are in, but, as always, the suit, like it has been for the past hundred years, is still the respectable attire for the businessman on the go.

To say suits won't exist anymore, is rather silly. Then again, to say that micro-skirts won't be considered sexy anymore is also silly. Are you familiar with males?

Besides, if Corp types could wear ANYTHING they wanted, whatsoever, how would they be told apart from the dregs down in the shadows?

Read basically ANY of the fiction in SR4, and you'll realize corp types are called 'suits' and people still wear 'monkey suits' at fancy parties, and heck, even the Actioneer Line of clothing is a SUIT built for protection in case you still want to look slick, but don't want to die.

Several of the pics and text in the shadowrun book itself seems to contradict several of the assertions people have made about shadowrun clothing in general, and it must be said, at the end of the fashion section in the book, it says the old standby of comfortable clothing, jeans, t-shirts, jackets, coats, sportswear, etc, are still fairly common. What alot of people seem to think is 'normal' rather represents the cutting edge, the streets, and the shadows, which, to be quite honest, aren't 'normal'

While one person may say 'Hey, your character wearing a suit, and with spiky green hair and no nano-tats isn't wild enough for shadowrun' they'd probably just be a jerk who doesn't know enough about the source material, and is trying to overlay their own political and/or progressive beleifs over the game. It's not about what the future SHOULD be, that is, gender equality, a total lack of clothes, complete social freedom...but what Shadowrun IS: A dark, dystopian setting where the corporations hold a stranglehold on life, and the folks who run in the shadows rebel in any way they can, while still, ironically, being gears in the machine. Prejudice, and sex, don't go away with time. They'll always be there. Especially in a dystopia. Shadowrun is not a game for progressive idealists.

I don't think soulless corporate drones will be half naked, the other half in mesh and leather, their head sporting electronically powered tendrils, just yet, omae.

Ref, SR4:

Pg 14, Pg 41 (Pic), Pg 498 (Pic), Pg 94 (Pic), pg 105, need I go on?

I would definitely not agree that skimpy clothes are no longer sexy.  I would say instead that they're no longer taboo.

As for inappropriate clothing...  In the boondocks, you could definitely get in trouble for wearing the wrong thing.  A gang might take offense at some suit walking into their turf like he owns the place.  A lady dressing like a whore... since when do gangs dislike such things?  "Hey, you're hot.  Die!" just doesn't seem to fit any theme I've ever even imagined.  The only way skimpy clothes would get you into trouble is if they got you raped.  But since rape is against policy, why should we let someone substitute violence?  That's just taking a big dump on realism - rape doesn't exist in this world, so instead, gangers kill when aroused.  Whatever...

Also, if there are parts of town where you might get killed for wearing the wrong thing, there should probably be some warning to that effect in a +theme file.  I doubt that anyone would wear the "wrong" thing in a bad part of town if they knew it was dangerous (unless looking for a fight).  The problem is, all anybody usually has is the desc of the location, which is usually pretty general and vague.  I think it's pretty lame to spring a "gangers attack you!" scenario on someone when they go somewhere out of ignorance.  It's not like which areas are super hazardous is a secret ICly.  That information should be more or less freely available.  If it was in a theme file, then nobody would have an excuse for being in the wrong place in the wrong attire - most likely, they wouldn't go there, and this whole thing would be totally irrelevant.

Good point, Tear.

Hell, I'm sure half the time people are dressed wrong, they didn't even stop to THINK about it, since you can just bamf over there. A real person would have time along the way to think. 'Oh fuck, I can't go to the barrens in Corp Work attire!!' and change. Players don't always have thatl uxury before they are asploded by Gog.

And yeah, beating up a hooker makes no sense unless you're a serial killer. Or her pimp.

'Dem ho's gotta be kept in line. *Adjusts his feathered pimp-hat.*

Seriously, gangers would not only be stupid to attack someome who looks like a whore because its a bad idea to kill random people, but because a hooker would have to be stupid not to have a huge-ass Troll for a pimp in the barrens. And Troll pimps got more than just Pimp Hats, they got Wired Reflexes, Suckah. Gog kills a random woman, SOMEONE is gonna come down hard on his ass.

Locational theme files (Theme files that pop up when you're IN a location.) Would be awesome.

First off, I never said that Corpers didn't wear suits.  I said that people who work Downtown for the corps prolly don't, though they gotta be nicely attired.  And then I went on to describe corpers.  Whom, from all the pictures shown were actually men, and not women.  The one female picture of a suit wearer was the Face, whom was described as mostly being a businesswoman (hence the suit) but it did not fail to mention she was up on ALL the trends and fashions and could blend in easily.  So, in that tatt pub, she's prolly cool, or the punk/gothic place, etc.  She's got more than suits to wear that much is for sure.

Second, when I was talking about skirts I didn't make myself too clear in the one sentence about calling them 'not sexy'.  I said, though, they shouldn't even be considered sexy.  I have this problem, I clarify after I make a claim, and I don't link the two which I need to fix.  The reason was not because people wouldn't think that Micro-Skirts were related to sexuality, but instead that they were more related with what should be worn.  That a person today with a skirt down to her knees is considered normal, or low thighs, but when she wears a micro-skirt she's considered a skank.  Which, is more the opposite in SR.  The person in the micro-skirt is considered more normal and the woman wearing a knee-length skirt might be called a prude.  Someone can still like skirts, but the ought-to and what's 'appropriate' to be differentiated from normal -> sexy scale has slid more in the direction of micro-skirts than to normal skirts.

Third, pg 14 (check out her tribals and tight clothes), pg 18 (check out back left with his cybered form showing off), pg 20 (my favorite bad ass elf chica), pg 26 (demon porn, just throwing this one in, I know it doesn't quite relate but he's nekkie), pg 37 (sexy in the same place as camera shops, radiation zones, etc), pg 44 (topless in back), pg 52 (who's not wearing a skintight shirt? and midriff on right), pg 66 (belly and lots of cleavages), pg 95 (shorts and sleeveless shirt, for a gunslinger!), pg 10 (muscle shirt!), pg 103 (mid-thigh skirt, midriff, no sleeves), pg 112 (muscle shirt, belly), pg 133 (far right looks topless), pg 147 (another topless, shirts just aren't popular), pg 171 (let's hear it for semi-clothed monks), pg 186 (look up, loinclothish dress), pg 190 (no top again), pg 242 (sleeveless girlie with lots of tatts and wild hair + cleavage), pg 260 (weird teeth, but otherwise lots of holes in that top), pg 262 (even the rich, barbed tatt, gun on thigh holster, long slit up thigh, no straps and big time cleavage), pg 313 (thigh highs, shorts, and shirt without cutouts), pg 336 (even the most cybered can show off cleavage).

My point is not that everyone dresses without as much clothing on as today's people do.  My point is that from pretty much any walk of life, the streets to the corpers, that less clothing isn't considered inappropriate.  That Micro-Skirts wouldn't be considered as sexy as they are today, though a micro-skirt with Trid videos showing on it might just be.  There's also the armor from the previous edition of shadowrun, the body suit that worked just like a formfitting body suit, but was see through and by some popular actress was made fashionable.  Certainly I can not vouch for any of the fiction from Shadowrun except what I read and see in the books... of which I consider the only important aspect of the game (as the books do not necessarily follow New Seattle's canon history).  Walking down the street in a halter top and a miniskirt isn't going to get you called a skank in most places, with exceptions made by silly people.  If you work at a cafe you won't be required to wear a skirt that falls within 3 inches of your knees like at my work, and you won't be required to wear a shirt that doesn't 'show too much'.  If you are a higher up in a corp you will almost assuredly wear a dress or suit, as I stated, but again they too will be modified to more current trends in a lot of situations.  Vinyl suits, slitted dresses, added tatts, etc.

Even if you disagree with me, it is obvious that there is something going on in the shadow community, as well as the ganger community, of which our game will start its existence.  We will be in The barrens, so we'll have limited fashion within those grounds.  As far as rape is concerned I'm not sure that raping sexy people actually falls within even modern statistics.  Sure, it happens, but general speaking old women and young girls get raped more often than any other classification of woman (even prostitutes).  Just a thought.  In addition you may very well think twice about beating on anyone who resembles a hooker, unless you are willing to risk repercussions from her pimp/gang/madame/etc.

At least we agree though, that tatts and hairstyles are pretty versatile in use.  What needs to be done, and this can't be done by players, is for a decision to be made.  What is and what isn't considered fashionable, and that should be posted somewhere.  That or allow it to be completely player managed.  At which point I might make a gang of microskirt wearing combat monsters to go out and punish all the people wearing more clothing than they are. ^_^  See the danger?  Player enforced fashion is a nice ideal, but it can lead to pretty silly problems, if I remember right that's exactly how the Elfbian mafia started.  A bunch of people got pushed together with similar ideas and decided to destroy theme... and with theme the game.  In the same sense, however, there were people who were pushing against the completely thematic results of freedom of sexuality and metahumanity.  It is a tango, afterall.  With a clearly described fashion law by the staff, however, we could decide ourselves how much in or out of normally themed fashion we were in whatever area we happened to be in.  I really liked playing my apathetic tank of a character who kept her shoes on in a japanese restaurant, pissing off the J who was going to hire her.  She didn't get into that job, but at least I was in character and I knew what I was doing, even the staffer paged me hoping I knew what I was up to.

         There's only one thing this 'man' can be, and that's a troll. Well over two meters in height he stands even taller if you include the curved spiraling horn on the right side of his head just above his temple. For a troll he takes surprisingly good care of himself however, long bushy hair pulled back and tight away from face in a thick pony-tail that displays his datajack for all to see in his left temple, shining silver chrome and tourquoise jack jewelry just below a smaller horn that curls forwards and over his forehead. For all his care he's not exactly handsome, high bridged forehead, wide-set eyes of deep green and rounded cheekbones all are offset by a large nose that's been broken at least once in the past. His lips would be full if they weren't pressed into a tight line most the time and deep creases line his face from many frowns. A strong squared jaw is kept mostly cleanshaven except for a thick goatee and mustache of raven black hair. For a troll, he's not bad looking at all but neither is he ever going to be a model with the typical troll bumps and calcium deposits scattered about.

        He wears a thick heavy black synth-leather jacket with all the spikes, chains, and accoutrements of something out of an old movie ported to trid, lots of zippered pockets and buckles of chrome. Beneath the jacket is fairly run of the mill street clothing, possibly placing the jacket as a prized valued possession. A simple black shirt over a powerfully muscled frame tucked into rugged baggy pants of dark grey. The pants are 'belted' with a long length of chain wrapped around his waist a few times with links tucked tightly together so it doesn't fall free. Finishing the look is a pair of heavy biker boots reinforced with metal plates and hard thick soles that look scuffed and well worn. For whatever reason he wears a black leather glove over his large right hand but not his left.

There we go. Just a five minute description, now I wanna build him lol.

I revitalize old topics!  What do you think of this desc?

This 6'2 and three quarters of an inch tall elf moves with cat like grace, with eyes that burn into your soul.  You instantly feel awed by his awesomeness.  If you're a female, just looking at this elf makes you take your clothing off regardless of where you are.  If you're maile, you immediately cower in fear and throw all your weapons and money on the floor.  Wow is this elf awesome.

** It's late and I'm wired on caffeine, so this will probably be less amusing to me in the morning.

You forgot to mention his smirk!