Well here's the problem with that, (insert @name) the elf comes strolling through the barrens wearing six inch stilletto come (insert colourful metaphor) pumps, a skin tight latex micro-mini skirt and even smaller tighter blouse.

Gog the ork ganger can do what to @name the elf? Gog has to +judge and deal with waiting on staff. Then what happens? What is staff going to do in such a circumstance?

I am sorry Licenser, but, my character will not be carry a tape measure in her pocket to measure how tall a person is or is not. Why is it necessary to give a person's exact height in centimeters?

Gog the ork ganger can beat the hell out of her, that's what. Unless she's tougher than he is, in which case she'll beat the hell out of him.

You've said yourself we should let players police themselves. I'd prefer to let players work out such issues on their own, leaving staff to only intercede when that proves impossible. This is the problem staff faces in this situation: Gog +judges and when a staffer is available they pop down to the grid. Ms. Elfette explains that the desc was a mistake, she meant to be wearing her armored coveralls, just forgot to change the desc. She may even have the coveralls in her inventory. Now...what does staff do? Do they say, to hell with potential mistakes and let Gog at her? Or do they cut her a break (if it's a first offense, for example) and let her change her desc? How can we make a fair call on that? Suggestions?

[edited for spelling]

It would be nice if characters would be responsible for their actions. Upon logging on Ms Elfette should say, "Oh I'm going to place X which is in section Y of the city. I should make sure I am wearing appropriate attire and am either leaving weapons or bringing them as appropriate the location and job description (if on a job).

The current rules are, if a player wishes to conduct an IC action against another player they are required to use +judge, explain the situation, and wait for an availible judge.

If therefore, Ms Elfette did not take a few minutes to make sure she was appropriate for the venue, then she should have to suffer the consequences of not properly preparing. Gog should therefore be able to conduct any action he wishes against Ms Elfette. The only instance that I can see at this time to let Ms Elfette off the hook would be if an admin mistyped a dbref# when using the @tel command.

Currently, if two players meet on the street and begin an altercation, they are free to do so, and to +inflict any injuries on themselves up to and including death. Staff only comes into play when one player wishes to fight and the other resists. That's the situation I'm assuming you're referring to when discussing Ms. Elfette. I'd like to see other opinions before coming down and simply saying, 'Yes, smite the desc-abominator,' though I'd have no problem doing it.

However, this is a thread on descs. If anyone has any other samples (we could use troll and ork) post 'em. If there are other comments to be made on the desc samples, make 'em.

If Gog and Elfette can't resolve the issue themselves, as that sometimes happens, I think the first thing a staffer should ask Gog is, "What's inappropriate about a woman in the barrens who's dressed like a prostitute?  Never seen a prostitute before?"  Then the next question might be asked, "What about a ganger?  Gangs like to have their women dress up like that, or normal people, especially now.  Its fine to come on really strong to the person, but if you could please explain what's wrong with her description?"  Now, its the Barrens.  So another scenario might be.

"You dislike the clothes?  Alright, attack."  Without giving them a chance.  And you kill someone important, or a gang's woman, or a prostitute with a mean pimp, or maybe you just killed a PC for dressing as what they considered appropriate.  It isn't abnormal in the 2070s to see people wandering around in latex, in gothic clothing, in army get-ups, with mohawks or large tattoos, with clothing that's see-through and is jamming music.

My questions, especially for clothing, are always about "Why is X inappropriate?"  Now, I also believe you don't need a reason to kill someone in a MUX.  You wanna be an idiot who is a sociopathic killer, be my guest.  You'll pick on the wrong person eventually.  It is the Barrens afterall, you never know what you're gonna get.  Maybe Gog really likes Elfette's shoes and wants them for himself?  That's a legitimate reason.  But, what we consider highly sexual and flaunting clothes in todays terms, are nothing of the sort in Shadowrun, they are simply clothes.  Its tough to have 'skimpy' outfits in the future, but in a place like the Barrens it better at least be on someone who can take a few shots.

What I would really like to see on the new grid is people taking responsibility for the cyber and the armor they wear. You cannot be a .05 essence Cyber-Zombie and desc yourself as a well dressed, handsome, SKINNY person with no signs of enhancement.. And you cant wear a mini skirt, halter top, and armored jacket without actually including the armor in your description. People abuse this frequently, and i'd like to see some actual personality/appearance ramifications for heavy amouts of cyber/armor.

Why is X inappropriate? That depends upon the circumstances at hand. Wearing full combat armor with a milspec helmet in Glow City or another Z zone is more than likely a reasonable caution. Wearing the same in Touristville a C zone; well there's an awful lot of subjectivity that can be applied there. However wearing said armors downtown in a AAA deli while eating a ham sandwich should earn one a ticket to the DPR unless they're extremely charismatic or lucky to get past Joe LoneStar with somekind of rational explaination.

If Gog the Ork Ganger kills people dressed like hookers as a passtime, he's a serial killer, not someone doing their part to prevent people from having inappropriate descs.

And seriously, if you have a serial killer PC, you can't honestly expect they'll survive very long.

The other problem I see with this whole situation is that most of you who responded, responded instantly with a matter-of-fact impression that anyone who is in a fight is going to PK the other person.

This is one of the things that most bothers me about PC/PC interaction on mu*. Nobody ever beats the hell out of someone, kicks them in the ribs, or steals their stuff. They always kill them for the slightest things. Now, while I think that having the wrong desc in the barrens warrants getting your ass beat and your stuff stolen, does a random hooker really deserve to be killed for something like that?

For once I'd like to have a barfight with another player that doesn't end with one of us having to execute eachother, gangland style.

In some ways, it's alot like an MMO. Everyone lusts for PK'ing and a way to vent their agression without giving the appropriateness of their act to the time, place, and target, much thought. It's not here, though, honestly, but mu*s in general, I have yet to see a single player on player fight that didn't end lethally, even when it began as a simple brawl. Maybe it's male ego, maybe it's just that mushers are all psychopathic people filled with repressed anger, but the whole 'kill the next person who coughs when I'm oocly having a bad day' thing need not be epidemic.

I'm hoping to be in a barfight in the future, if anyone is willing to get drunk and beat the crap out of my ass with a smirk, and then NOT drive a pool-cue through my temple, you know where to find me.

P.S. Even Mafiosi beat more people up than they kill.

I agree with Whiteknight about more non lethal fights. The problem is, the guy who loses always PK's you a month later on his own terms and uses revenge for the beating as his justification.

Mu*s aren't RL, but maybe more people should use some RL logic. How many of you people out there been in a fight?

How many of you have killed the person?

How many have been killed?

Sure, the jackass, who is a sad pathetic little man who needs an ego stroking may try to hunt you down with his harem of sexy samurais, but if you don't play his game, then he'll be the one who is seen as 'out of line' when he tries to kill you.

Maybe it's just that I've been into the setting without actually playing, but I've always thought there was a general idea of a code on the streets where if some drekhead gets his ass beat he's beat, and if he goes around killing anyone who slights him, the world needs to be made a safer place for those who prefer beating but not bullets in the breain.

The problem is if everyone's rationale is 'Oh, I have to kill him, or he'll kill me later' it's just going to be a constant PK fest with no non-lethal alternatives. It sounds like a blood feud between...everyone.

It's also an OOC rationale for an IC problem. These situations are not as much driven by IC, as OOC malice, OOC anger, or OOC need for an ego stroking. Odds are Gog the Ork ganger, on the day he kills the Hooker-Elf, is frustrated at his job and his lukewarm sex-life, RL.

I'll use the mafia as an example again. The mafia tend to be tolerated as long as the people, in general feel that who they killed 'got what was comin' to them'. However, if and when they ever ramp up their killings, or get an agressive and murderous new boss, the people have in the past and will in the future rise up and drive them out of town, or at least the boss.

I'd rather see an order of peace imposed by fear. Fear of killing someone who is well connected, fear of killing someone who knows someone, and as a result keeping people from being randomly geeked for wearing heels, than one that's driven by a fear of reprisal so people kill eachother if they think there's any chance they might themselves be killed by this individual in the future as revenge for their current actions. *WHEW*

It's silly.

Well, one of my characters who was a cybered out expert street brawler beat the crap out of a golf club wielding physad...  Of course, they were cousins, and the other player was an RL friend!  But it's happened at least once...

The problem is really that most runners pack lethal firepower and don't bother with nonlethal stuff.  Many people who are gun based don't learn any melee skill, since it's often more effective to just shoot.  And nobody carried weapons loaded with gel because ExEx was almost required to hurt a well armored opponent.  In SR4, people might be more likely to carry gel, since at +2 AP vs. impact, it's about as good as regular, and inflation has been reduced so that the price of ExEx matters.

And then you have your melee characters, who were more or less universally based around hand razors, swords, or other deadly weapons.  You only had the occasional brawler, and clubs people?  Forgetaboudit.  Melee people are even less likely to do stun damage in SR4, since bone lacing makes your punches always physical, clubs are physical...  Only shock gloves and stun batons (and saps I think, forget if they dropped those or not) do stun damage.

The one hope for altercations being non lethal more often is stik-n-shok ammo, which with its -half impact armor AP, rivals ExEx against most targets.  But against people with nonconductive armor, it's not so great...

So yeah, the biggest reason why nobody goes outside and has an old fashioned brawl is because most people don't know how to brawl!  Of course, that doesn't stop people IRL.  IRL, people without much brawling experience will still fight, because getting beat up is probably the worst that will happen, and that's not such a big deal.  In Shadowrun though, people feel the need to +prove their penis size, I mean how awesome their sheet is, so they'll never enter a fight without maximizing their chance for victory.

I do agree that killings should be a rare occurrence.  I think they are pretty rare, actually, since PvP situations aren't terribly common.  Usually nobody wants to start anything, because they have no idea whether they can beat the other guy, and many of us have been burned by metagaming chain reactions where you start something with one PC, and their 13 friends all just happen to show up online at the same time.  But the more or less 1:1 ratio of PvP situations to PK's is definitely a bad thing.  I don't know what could be done to reduce it.  Maybe a +theme file that talks about violence and the unwritten law of the street - that people don't kill unless the other person deserves it (or they're trying to prove a point) - would help.  Also, grid hangouts might be unwilling to let particularly notorious people in.  If someone kills for no reason, a bar or club would be more likely to refuse them entry, which is a GM tool for messing with people who can't restrain their PKing.  Those people are pretty rare though, and considering the relatively insular crowd on these boards, I doubt we'll be seeing very many of them.

Thanks, Tear. This is exactly the point I was tring to make.

I, for one, am relatively content with my average +penis size, it's got a bit of cyberware, but not too much, and doesn't really excel at anything, but it gets the job done.


This is also what I was trying to imply with my last words, though you put it alot better. There really should be an unwritten 'code' of the street that penalizes people who 'go too far'. And seriously, to be quite honest, if you don't know how to brawl, that's an even better reason to be in one. I mean, people who don't know how to brawl more often than not think they'll win, anyways. It's fun to watch, and nobody dies.

But people shouldn't just kill randomly unless the other person deserves it, or they're trying to prove a point. In the end, people should be policing themselves. It's by consensus. Do you think Hooker Elf deserved death? Do you think killing a random hooker Elf was to make a point? Which point? No keebs in the barrens? If these are all bad arguments, Gog gets lynched and strung up by his genitalia. It may be true that pure PKillers are rare, but it's still bad that we see a relative 1:1 for PVP Vs. PK.

You're good at putting thoughts into words though, Tear, thanks.

For once, I'd really love to get into a savage bar-fight with someone, and end up becoming buddies, or even fellow runners with them. Rather than just having one of us become a corpse. You ever heard the Johnny Cash song 'A Boy Named Sue' ?

Well, I knew that snake was my own sweet dad
From a worn-out picture that my mother'd had,
And I knew that scar on his cheek and his evil eye.
He was big and bent and gray and old,
And I looked at him and my blood ran cold
And I said: "My name is 'Sue!' How do you do!
Now your gonna die!!"

Well, I hit him hard right between the eyes
And he went down, but to my surprise,
He come up with a knife and cut off a piece of my ear.
But I busted a chair right across his teeth
And we crashed through the wall and into the street
Kicking and a' gouging in the mud and the blood and the beer.

I tell ya, I've fought tougher men
But I really can't remember when,
He kicked like a mule and he bit like a crocodile.
I heard him laugh and then I heard him cuss,
He went for his gun and I pulled mine first,
He stood there lookin' at me and I saw him smile.

And he said: "Son, this world is rough
And if a man's gonna make it, he's gotta be tough
And I knew I wouldn't be there to help ya along.
So I give ya that name and I said goodbye
I knew you'd have to get tough or die
And it's the name that helped to make you strong."

He said: "Now you just fought one hell of a fight
And I know you hate me, and you got the right
To kill me now, and I wouldn't blame you if you do.
But ya ought to thank me, before I die,
For the gravel in ya guts and the spit in ya eye
Cause I'm the son-of-a-bitch that named you "Sue.'"

I got all choked up and I threw down my gun
And I called him my pa, and he called me his son,
And I came away with a different point of view.
And I think about him, now and then,
Every time I try and every time I win,
And if I ever have a son, I think I'm gonna name him
Bill or George! Anything but Sue! I still hate that name!

I wouldn't mind getting into a lethal fight that ends nonlethally some-time, either. It's a dramatic convention, consarn it.

No matter what unwritten law of the street one might have, there will be someone who tries to bend it or turn it to their advantage. If for no other reason than interpretation or relationship.

Part of the problem is that there are OOC rules in effect that force people to the pkill level. The No Rape policy for example. The elven hooker/secretary/whatever comes to the barrens from the bright downtown lights. Said elf skips along into a situation where you cannot even FTB with "Bad things happen to you." because that can be construed as rape. So you're left with what? PKILL, since people tend to use guns, and other implements of violence first.

Maybe people shouldn't draw their gun on someone who looks to be weaker and less armed than they. (That skin-tight outfit makes it pretty hard to conceal a weapon.)

Or maybe people should just not be dicks, and we'd have no problem.