I'm pretty sure we're on two different topics right now. 

CKs started talking about mush etiquette and player mentality of realizing he's not the star of the story... I agree, background writing won't help with either one of those.  Nothing but experience and/or asking staffers (normally while in chargen) what's the deal help with those.

But they are also not the main focus of backgrounds.  Sometimes they end up being latent functions, but they aren't the main goal. 

And there are indeed rules to be learned in Chargen.  "Why can't I spend four hundred build points on attributes?"  "Because the rule is you can only spend two hundred."  Tadaa.  Or, "Why can't I be a technomancer and a mage?"  "Because the theme is ..."  Tadaa.

Just because I missed the horse when it was dying, shot, zombified, shot again, shot even more, and then miraculously ressurected by the almighty...

Here's what backgrounds -can- do for you:

They can help you learn how that character thinks in a given situation. They can help you understand where that characters mentality comes from in every day life. They can help you figure out why that character likes to hang out at Stuffer Shacks(tm) or why s/he'd rather hang out at The Banshee.

Here's the big thing:

They -can- help you get into the head of a character, and roleplay out -that- character bringing it truly to life.

If you let them.

......................

Now on to the original topic: I don't want other players reading my background unless they are trusted to be PHStaff. Why? Because my characters background isn't supposed to be common knowledge. I want people to have to dig for those little secrets, or find out ICly, not already know that they need to look in X place for Y information OOCly. I don't want to have to write my backgrounds so that there is no sense of identity, because who knows could be reading it amongst your peers. The purpose of a background, for me, is to help -me- understand the character I am trying to roleplay. I can design sheets all day, but it doesn't mean much without a background to go with it.

In Table Top, you have limited play time, and limited interraction. MU*'s are much more immersive. I want to be able to immerse myself into that character and help -other players- become immersed in the interraction between characters and environment. Pretty simple really. If every Tom, Richard, and Jane can read a background and chat about it... well, that's detracting from the RP experience of meeting someone new, finding out how they act, and developing any sort of relationship (Antagonistic, friendship, whathaveyou) for the every day player.

...........................

Back to the tangent:

Having quality control is elitist. So is not wanting a 90 pound 5'6" tall weakling playing your left tackle in football. Anytime you have a set of standards, you are being elitist. Everyone is elitist. We're elitist in what we like to eat, or drink. We're elitist in whom we would want to get in the sack. We're elitist about what games we play on, or what we like. We're elitist about everything wether we admit it or not. It can't be avoided. I'd rather have some measure of quality control to make sure that the people I interract with are a part of the theme, and the world, rather than Chuck E. Norrison. Or some other garbage.

Yep. I'm elitist too. I want a quality game with quality experiences. People who want to learn, will learn, they will ask questions. Having background and a requirement for approval is part of what seperates a MUX/MUSH from a MUD. I don't want to deal with a ton of people who ask how much karma does it take to get to the next level and where are the mobs wandering around on the grid. Keep the check in place.

If you know how to get around it, and the desire to, then you're probably not the type who should be on a MUD anyways, so more power to you.

From one SR MUSH noob to all the rest...

? ? ? ? ?Do some research:
             Buy the sourcebook... PDF = $23.00 and/or
? ? ? ? ?    buy a novel... around $6.00 and/or
? ? ? ? ?    goto the Wizkids Shadowrun site and/or
? ? ? ? ?    one of the many other shadowrun sites...? (eg.. the Sixth World Wiki...), (Google "Shadowrun")

? ? ? ?  Have an idea of the character you want to be...
? ? ? ? ?Do the numbers phase...
? ? ? ? ?Write a short '1 page' background...
? ? ? ? ?Submit application... (Should be enough info in above sources to have a pretty good app)
? ? ? ? ?Correct application and reapply... (Should be able to pass)
? ? ? ? ?Play & Learn...
? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? A game without some type of background system is just a hack and slash. Even in tabletop games where the GM's/DM's don't require a written background the players are usually encouraged to have an idea of the characters background. Read SRIV pg 87 where it talks about... guess what... "BACKGROUNDS!" it even mentions writing (imagine that...). If a player is not willing to do some research and even the most basic BG they need to think about why they are playing and maybe chose a game that is less roleplay oriented. I firmly believe that quality of play is directly proportional to amount of preparation.

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?I'm done,?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Have a good day,
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?The NOOB?
? ? ? ? ?

*applauds Green Elf* Good answer, good answer.

My thoughts on backgrounds:

They are *essential*. If you just do a +sheet, you tend to not worry so much about the 'why' of things. See, OK, I can see that. For an NPC. For a short-term character, maybe you don't need a BG, or even want one.

But for the average character? OK, I have a sheet. But unless you can get inside your character's head, unless you can think as your character thinks (or at least have an idea how they would think), unless you know that character well enough to at least begin to submerge your RL self within them, you're going to tend to come off as fairly wooden.

Backgrounds do not guarantee that you will get inside your character. They do, however, tend to spur the sorts of thinking that allows that.

Tear gives Marcus a newbie snack.

Tear steals a pic from Melkir's repetoire.  Has it already been posted on this very thread?  Tear forgets.



EDIT: Yes, it has.

You really have a tendancy to really offer a lot of constructive input, and debate into a topic, Tear.

Bravo.

-CM

Yes, debate.  Where everyone is repeating the same points over and over, and nothing is going to result because the relevant decisions have already been made.  Debate is what this is.

Tear is hurt, deeply hurt.  Are you done now?

Nah, we're just starting. The horse... is alive! Alive! We must torture it more.

Anyway.

I agree that backgrounds - when written the way they were intended to be - help the person "get inside the mind of the character". However, more often than not, they do something else entirely. In the mind of the noob, they are not an artistic exercise, they are red tape. They are a chore.

A true roleplayer would get off in more ways than one, writing his story. A noob who is repeatedly asked to change his story over and over again is not thinking about "getting into the character's mind", he's just trying to get onto the grid to play already!

So what happens to his mind? Instead of getting into his character's head he gets into the mindset of a consumer, of a very specific Seattle MUSH consumer - the person who gets his way by whining and paperwork. Paperwork and whining. Whining and paperwork. That's what the MUSH is all about. That's what we're breeding in chargen with this filtration process. Because if you rewrite your sucky background often enough it will get approved eventually. Even if it doesn't get any better - just if it gets long enough.

Not everyone's a talented writer. And some of these noobs write stories boring enough to put themselves to sleep. So, the writing style of justifying every single number on the character sheet becomes a nail-on-chalkboard whining for stats.

Where's that "character's mind" then? It'll still be the same freaking leet-ninja-pirate-fastest-gun-in the west. He'll just know that his parents and grandma were killed by Ares goons and his girlfriend was posessed by a bug spirit. And he'll still pick a fight on his first night out and die. Exact same was he would if he didn't write all that bulldrek.

*kicks the horse in the nuts* Get up you lazy bastard, go!

MUSHes are not for everyone.  We shouldn't be loosening the restrictions just to get more players.  The people who are likely to enjoy a mush are for the most part not the people who hate writing bg's.  I know there are some experienced mushers who dislike the bg process, but they play regardless whether we do away with bg's or not.  As for noobs, the bg serves a critical function, which is to hammer home that this is definitely not a mud and it definitely requires in-theme characters. 

Opening the doors of IC wide to all comers would be a huge mistake.  We need to get new players into the mindset of the game BEFORE they hit the grid.  If we let in people who don't form complete sentences and use lol after every line, there's a good chance that they will never correct their ways with just gentle probing on the part of players and admins.  There was no test at all when I played in an RP group on an MMO, and a good fifth of the players were like this, they ignored every RP convention no matter how often they were asked to amend their ways.  The only way to fix them was to kick them out of the group, which would feel unfair and arbitrary to them, and the group would get a reputation as elitist.  So we let them stay and pollute the RP, and I quit in disgust.  We need a checkpoint of some kind; it need not be a strict checkpoint, but it has to be there.  We're not trying to compete with WoW for players, and there should be no pressure for us to conform to the lowest common denominator.  The flavor and theme of the game depends on new characters fitting into the game world.  PHSers do a marvelous job of making this happen, and I really can't see how we could improve on that.

Tear check's the horse's pulse.  "He's dead, Jim."

What you're failing to grasp is that making a background requirement will not prevent this sort of activity.? The biggest hoop of all that needs to be jumped through, for n00bs, is just logging onto this site in the first place.? Once they're here, writing a background, like CommieKeebler said, is just a matter of determination, and red tape.

You're complaining that there was no enforcement of RP guidelines, and blaming it on the lack of backgrounds.? Well.? Let me help you out:

The Key to enforcing RP is to enforce RP.? Enforcing Backgrounds is not the key to enforcing RP.? The reason the key to enforcing RP is to enforce RP, and the enforcement of backgrounds is not the key to enforcing RP is because RP is RP, while backgrounds ARE NOT RP.

Pretty incredible, huh?

Here's the solution.? And this is one that I think not only addresses n00bs, but also TS hounds, NSRMM's, and anyone else who's Roleplay does not fall into themeatic range - Enforce the IC theme, and roleplay conventions.? If a player is out of theme, don't just sit around and take it, because they wrote a good background, and they're paragraphs are formatted, and they use big words.? And likewise, it should be our jobs as players to take the new player types, who just walk up to you and say your @name outloud the first time they meet you, under our wings, and show them what's up.? Not gasp at they're n00bishness like we were somehow better than them.

With the exception of myself, who was born a perfect musher thanks to my divine bloodline, and maybe The Melkir, because he was genetically engineered, all of you had someone take you under their wing.? And it wasn't in the 'background process' that you learned the nuiances of mushing.? It was during live play, when you made a mistake, and someone else in the scene corrected you, but encouraged you all at once.? Some of you took more work than others, but in the end, you've all contributed to the MUX community.

In the end, you can decide why we're writing backgrounds - Is it to enforce some silly notion of elitism?? If so, it's not very effective, and turns off more veterans, than greenhorns.? IS it to help us jump into the mindset of our characters?? Once again, it's an ineffective institution to accomplish that goal.

-CM

Logging onto the site is a tougher hoop to jump through than writing a bg?  You can log onto the site if you don't even speak fluent english.  You can log onto the site if you're positive that it's really a dragonball Z mush.  You can log onto the site if you have every intention of disobeying every RP and theme convention and ruining everyone's day.  A BG ensures that people actually care enough about playing to put some thought into their character.

You have explained that the background process is not determinative of good RP and you're correct.  But you've failed to present any evidence that it serves no purpose.  There seems to be no disadvantage to BOTH enforcing RP on-grid and requiring backgrounds, except that it requires players to deal with delayed gratification.  On a MUX, that's basically a requirement, considering the queue system and the length of time it takes to accomplish anything.  The entire argument against BG's seems to be a childish appeal that "I wanna pay now!"  Well in a big peoples' world, we learn to wait for the things we want.

No.? Mushing is obscure enough of a hobby that most people who log in will not be n00bs.? The fact that they typed 'Shadowrun' and 'Text Based RPG' into their search entire is evidence enough of their desire to play a Shadowrun Text Based RPG.


I've explained that the background process cannot be adequately justified as a means to keep the n00bs at bay, and that it more often than not merely dissuades people who we'd like to have on the game, from joining.

Let's put it this way - if we end up going back to +whining for stats in 10-page backgrounds, I won't be playing here. I'm 29 years old, I have a family and a life. I don't have time for this.

Can I roleplay? Yes. But I'm sick of +whining for everything.