Just throwing this out there, but I'd like to see some way to institutionalize Shadowrun Teams. 

For myself personally, I'd like to find three other players who have characters that my character can contribute to (and vice versa) skills-wise that are Eastern or Central Time Zone, who won't mind exchanging phone numbers and getting a little personal (given that we all get along and whatnot) so that we can hook up regularly, like at least once a month for a run. 

Now what about institutionalizing that.  Given a trial period, if such a group shows cohesion, could certain elements such as Team Karma be introduced?  Also, could there be some way of recognizing this status as a Shadowrun Team within the game or out here for IC/RP purposes, not sure how that would be done but I know we had an extensive system on the old Seattle MU.  Rep/Notoriety could be involved a la SR4.

Perhaps even, given dire circumstances when the whole team has set up a meet and one of the regulars just doesn't show up, that team member could (by consent) have their character NPC'ed?

Just throwing out random suggestions here, but I'd like to see some solid framework for Shadowrun Teams in NS:SE rather than just loose congolmerates of social cliques, or random crapshoots as usual.  Incentives such as Team Karma or whatever might influence that (is Team Karma even SR4?  I think Rep/Notoriety is though...)

Ok, I'm out.

I have no idea if TK is in SR4, but I do know that SR:D ran with TK for a little while. It worked /very/ well -- but the problem was that, generally, teams don't relaly last that long. People gain RLs, get banned, get bored, whatever the case may be. Its hard, but I agree that TK is a great idea and its worth, IMO, creating / allowing permanent Shadowrun Teams. It adds a level of RP that doesn't normally exist on SR games.

-- X

MUXes shouldn't have teams.  That isn't to say that you can't form a team that you run with regularly, but if you mean that we should have THE TEAM as identified in the core book, I disagree.  The Team is part of canon, but it's based around a tabletop game.  A game where exclusive loyalty to The Team makes sense because... who the hell else is there? 

It's an integral part of Shadowrun culture to have a team of people you can semi-trust, but in a MUX we just have to let that slip between the cracks.  In the interests of inclusion, things are generally left open so people without any connections still get to play.  Nobody's gonna force you not to be in a permanent team, but it's not a good idea to try to reinforce people playing that way and even reward them for it.  It will make the place a lot less friendly to newbies...

Now, if it's just a group that meets for a plot every month, but does other plots with other people whenever they want, or some other semi-permanent but liberal association of that sort, it's not really a canon Team.  You can call it what you want, and for the purposes of a MUX that's as close to a team as you ever will or probably should get.  But it doesn't make sense to start awarding team karma or other props to people for such a loose affiliation.  If anything, fast and loose open PrPs should be encouraged as they make the MUX more fun for everyone.  Giving bonuses to static teams gives people incentive to play in a less friendly manner and makes it harder for new people to break in.  Plus, if they're just semi-teams anyway, why reward people for them?  It's not like meeting with a static group once in a while is something that deserves special treatment.

Oh yeah.  *Points to the NO HOUSERULES sign*  Don't make me tap the sign...

I second Xandar - Team Karma was fairly successful on SR:D.  And I think that Shadowrunner Teams are about the closest thing you can get to actually using 'Orgs' without getting all the headaches of an Org.  However, given the nature of Shadowrun: Seattle's current attitude about house rules, I believe there may need to be an official suppliment that would detail Team Karma before it would be considered.

But!

Don't be discouraged - While you may not have official rules in place, forming Shadowrunner teams is a great aspect of the genre.  And if you can't pool karma, you may very well pool resources at the least.  I think in Shadowrun 4, as the Karma Pool has been replaced, and I don't see Edge being shared between shadowrunners, the most benefitial part of Team Karma would be so the Mage doesn't get screwed burning karma on the Team Wards.

I dunno, I love the spirit of the idea, since let's face it, friends make life worth living, even in the 2070s, but I have to fully back Tear's opinion on this one. Team rep sounds like a fairly harmless idea, but it's kind of unnecessary, since if people run together often enough, they'll tend to have similar reputations anyway, since they'll be sharing in eachother's successes and failures. Johnsons don't care if you call yourselves the Gun Bunnies and share a squat, they just want the fixer to get them someone competent. Keep in mind too that not all of the playerbase (if things go well, anyway) may be familiar with older editions of Shadowrun either. Official teams could very well just end up as being official cliques, with benefits that new players may just see as completely arbitrary, with no basis in the rulebook. Meanwhile, there's nothing stopping players from grouping up with their buddies if they want to anyway. They just won't get special perks.

Team Karma Pool, is gone. ?With the removeal of Karma Pool, there's no TKP anymore!

Teams are an amazing part of the Shadowrun genre, I've started up teams in the past that were quite successful, and usually without any sort of special treatment. ?At some points, because the Team was SO successful, rules and stipulations were attempted to be created and applied to me and mine as a sort of test bed in order to see if it would work in the general populace. ?The IC team was usually powerful enough without any sort of additional benefits accrued through houserules, but as MU*s are want to do, the houserules became true and people abused them. ?However, I still really like the idea of a cohesive group that does runs together, and at least when concerned with BIG plots, they ONLY run together and include those people they've met along the way if they need some extra backup. ?But on milk runs, you don't always need your 'team' there, because quite frankly your association with them means little, and in fact most J's for a dinky run aren't going to hire a permanent (we only run together) team, cause of the higher cost for the higher reputation. ?They want little guys, small fries, people without associations. ?In those situations a perma-team would be a hindrance more than a benefit, so it makes lots of sense to have a semi-permanent team in any SR situation regardless of whether it is Table Top or MUXing. ?The difficulty in Table Top is, usually, that no matter what kind of plot you are in, you are with your TEAM, cause its your RP group. ?In a MUX we have many more people at our disposal, and thus we can make use of them when it makes sense.

The benefits that people want to include using houserules are actually already present in the most part, within the IC world of a Shadowrunning Team. ?You want more benefits with regards to resources. ?Well, you've got 5 buddies with you that you trust, and they trust, enough to help you get a gun at cost instead of charging you a little extra. ?Enough to send you to their mechanic buddy who's the best in Seattle, or at least claims to be, in order to get your car fixed after a bad run in with a wall. ?Plus, its easier to borrow nuyen from a team member than it would be from a stranger, the team member has much more assurance that you will be coming back to participate in the team to get even more money in the future, so its almost as good as knowing where someone lives. ?In addition, you may VERY WELL KNOW WHERE THEY LIVE! ?So, its more secure, and thus even more resources for you to pull on. ?A team also gets to use their resources more efficiently. ?Instead of having 5 gunmen show up to a plot, you can be prepped with a good variety of skills, and a knowledge of how best to use your individual characters in the team setting. ?Not only cause you've worked with the people before, but also because you could start in CG with the idea of a team in mind, thus you don't double up on anything that'd be wasteful to double up on. ?Other players will come on the grid trying to be more appealing to any plot that shows up, so they'll take a little of everything, because they can't know who they will be plotting with most of the time. ? That's another benny, right there, you get to make more of the character YOU want, and less of the character OTHERS will want, if you are concerned with plot efficiency that is...

As for Reputation and Notoriety, its easy to look at it and think we need some sort of system in place to add to the team's rep. ?Well, in fact, we don't. ?If Bill, Ted, Marsha and Emma all have great reputations because they get the job done, and they are most known for working with one another to do that. ?Then, guess what, on a big plot they'll have a bigger pull saying, "Hey, don't hire that dork over there, hire us. ?We've all got a reputation for getting the job done, no matter the cost, AND we do that together. ?We are known as the Red Falcons." ?And if we include comments on the Reputation/Notoriety section of our characters, than staffers can link reputations to those comments. ?"Got 4 points of reputation because Bill and his team, Red Falcons, did X job really well." ?Or whatnot, and so a GM just scans the rep real fast, notices 8 out of 10 bonuses were awarded because of things Bill did with the Red Falcons, and now there's an incentive ICly for the J to hire on the Red Falcons. ?The J might want another person or two to come along, but at least the Red Falcons don't have to split up to take the job. ?It'll help out your individual character too, say their notoriety is for being a jerk all the time to authority. ?But has also lots of points in Reputation for being with the Red Falcons. ?Well, by yourself even, a J may find it acceptable to hire you because although you are a dumbass when it comes to authority, most of the time, while you are in a team you show lots of promise at completing the mission. ?There's some room for leeway because you have some backing from your team. ?A normal person just gets known for doing well, okay, but that doesn't show consistency of loyalty, or duty, and they'll have a harder time being as consistently good because they are thrown in with random people ALL the time. ?So, again, just from the logistics of it all, the TEAM situation has better Reputation options, and uses, all ICly, without any required system adjustment.

As for mages doing team wards, wasting their karma on that. ?We think of that, and go, "Aww, poor mage." ?But then does the mage pitch in money for the samurai who blew up two cars with missiles? ?That's a lotta cash, a lot of cash she can't use for boosting up her legs, or getting another reflex bonus. ?Nope, she's gotta buy more missiles. ?If a mage is willing to put up karma requiring wards, they do so at their own loss. ?Instead of doing that, say, "Hey, team, we should hire another mage to do the work. ?Cause its really taxing, and I need to be ready for the next mission, but if we hire a third party mage, we can all just pitch in some cash and no one's worse for wear." ?And a good team would look at that, think about it, and nod their heads. ?A little cash from everyone is worth it to have your mage fully prepped for the upcoming job. ? And that saves the mage karma. ?If the mage never thinks of that, or is talked into spending their own karma, well, darn, there's no system in place in SR4 for the transfer of karma in any way, shape, or form. ?Tough luck, huh? ?Stupid mage.

As for Xandar's comment. ?In no way does disallowing a houserule about Team Karma, also disallow permanent teams. ?Just like Tear mentioned, if you want them you can have them, you just make an agreement. ?However, you do not need to be restricted to them, nor do you have the ability to do something above and beyond the rules because you decided to gain all the IC benefits I've mentioned, and then BONUS houseruled stuffs. ?I'd rather see a team that's interested in another level of RP, actually participate in the RP side of the argument and not the systemic benny side. ?We need create no new incentives for SR Teams, because they already exist in abundance AND can be done with no additional codes, rules, or special treatment. ?And that's the way it should remain.

P.S.  Amen Whipstitch, who posted while I was typing.  ^_^

Having a team implies that the group has a dedicated admin to run plots. Being that the PrP thread mentions that "You cannot run a PrP for your character."

Would it be fair to have an admin tied down to a group of players, to the detriment of everyone else?

Where does it say that you have to have a dedicated admin for a team?  I'm pretty sure in other threads having one admin dedicated to a player or group is frowned upon.  And I see no reason that a team has to, or that it is implied, that they will only have one admin running runs for them. 

Not being able to run a PrP for your character doesn't have much of a problem with this either. Either you can run for the group and make up a reason your character can't be there, or run one for half the group and a couple other players.  Not a big deal.

If you have a group/team of four people and one of them has to rotate out to GM/Run the PrP do you really have a team?

A team is a group that works together, not a group minus one. Therefore an "Institutional Team" is moot.

I see no reason why a bona fide team would have any less eligibiity for the standard tossed-out runs by any given admin than a collection of singles.  So long as they're not monopolizing runs or time, it would work just fine.  If the group has a fixer or face, they could facilitate action for the whole of the team.  Such regular collections of people could perpetuate RP and story motivation.  Just because a team wouldn't get special exclusionary loving from on high doesn't make it a bad idea.

Amen to that Nevermore. Working closely with someone can always be potentially beneficial. I'm currently twisting my brother's arm 'till he checks this place out so we can be partners. If we play as actual brothers, we could both break with the "I have no family..." trend while still flunking the Mary Sue litmus test horribly, which I consider a major benefit in and of itself. Plus, I suppose we could always you know, coordinate to cover as many contacts and skills as possible, but where's the fun in that?

I ran as a player and a GM (table top) using a loose KP. Long time ago, I think 94-96, and it worked out great.
People would generally donated 1 Karma to be used by team members on a team vote, as needed by all who contributed.
In the case of some really well played transitory characters ( we were in the military..deployments, moving, etc..) we even let people who weren't part of our "permanent group" use it.
I've never played in a MUSH before. I'm not even sure how karma works as far as all that goes.
 I don't see teams being too much of a problem, as long they don't monopolizing GM time. AND THEY DON'T GET CLICHEY(the players not the characters).
Oh and one more thing Great Story Teller in the Sky, Don't forget us out here on the Left coast. If you are going to set up groups maybe you could have one of your more experience MUSHers team up with us newbie to kinda teach us the ropes.
Just a thought.-QS

Don't worry, QuickSilver. There are a few of us out on the left coast

We're slowly reaching our goal, however, and there will be no more wild west coasters! Mwah!  They will all be tagged and put into controlled environments... Oh wait, nevermind. The coast is just going to fall into the ocean. 

I have no problems with Mush people wanting to create teams.  But I don't think they'd really get extra karma, even if it's in the books, unless every group that gets together for one run has a karma pool.  Teams are nifty.  But if you're worried about who is going to run the prp...  then don't get into a team? Or run a prp for some /other/ team.  The mush isn't Prp-world so you can run spiffy things for only one group, it's a whole mush. 

Free Spirits.

-CM