Ok, now we're really moving off topic.

The long and short of it is, we have only the Barrens to play right now. We're not planning on hiring any staff who have a grudge against homosexuals, lesbians, African-Americans, Asians, Hispanics, Latinos, MIddle Easterners, Sioux, Mohawk, Cherokee, any of the other 100 Nations I forgot, Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Communists, and so on and so forth.

It's the Barrens. There is no safe harbor. Be paranoid.

My God! The horse! You've killed the horse!

Oh.. wait, false alarm. The horse has been dead for a while.

We all do truly get that you shouldn't beat someone about the head because they stand out. Standing out is not about being anti-thematic either, so it goes both ways. As for the gang dynamic of 2070. Unless you've got your gang dynamic of 2006 down, I don't think we can go about speculating honestly. From "stories" of gangs killing each other for fashion no-nos, to people just randomly shooting grandmas for iniations, to gangs doing charity work for brothers of christ, what will happen some time from now in an age where less people can read and yet more people can communicate is impossible to speculate.

The outmoted idea in the converstaion may be the concept of fashion.

Ah The Barrens...

How do we make the Barrens more Barreny?

Well I suppose we'd have to understand what the barrens are.  We all know physicaly what the Barrens are (A portion of the Redmond Zone of Seatle that has little to no infrastructure what so ever that the police won't touch with a tank).  But what the Barrens -IS- is a matter of contention.  As someone pointed out ask 10 different people what the Barrens -is- to them and you'll get 8 different answers at the least.  We all agree its a dangerouse place, but for the most part thats where we all stop agreeing.

The world of 2070 is a vastly different world then it is today.  The world is sexualy liberal (name your fetish and its commonplace and accepted in general).  Died hair is the norm.  Style is king.  Blending in isn't what we think of it today.  You can wear average cloths in 2070 and you'll stick out like a sore thumb.  Their called flats and sold in vending machines for god sakes.  Blending in is wearing that spiked collar and mesh shirt, matched up with those wicked bondage pants with the shifting color patterns.

So why'd I go off on that tangent?  To bring perspective to the Barrens.

How do I see the Barrens?  The Barrens is a runner's 'paradise' so to speak.  Plenty of places to hide.  No 'law'.  No need to worry about your SIN.  The perfect place to lay low and disapear for a while.

SR4 is far grittier than SR3 ever was in my opinion.  But all of that doesn't mean the Barrens is a place to be feared by a runner.  Hell, the Barrens should be a second home to runners.  Not that place they wet their pants and fear that they're going to get muged three times walking from their cardboard box around the corner to the little pub (and i do literaly mean around the corner).  Thats the way you people seem to be suggesting it be.  That you should fear the Barrens.  Runners shouldn't fear the Barrens, they should respect the Barrens.  Know the right people, grease the right palms, do the right things for the right people and you're good.  Thats the barrens.  You've got gangs controlling things essentaily "block" (or whatever constitutes a block in the barrens, rubble piles, cardboard boxes parks, potholes..whatever) to "block".  Rent in the barrens isn't so much for the room, its so the local go-gang doesn't nessicarily decide to turn you into a ka-bob just because.  What go-gang in their right mind isn't going to want a runner under their roof, paying them protection money.  Thats a ally in their pocket.  Do something for him, and call on him when another gang starts to start shit.

Thats what you people are missing.  Gangs aren't gonig to attack everyone as they walk down the street.  Its not going to be a friendly neighborhood either.  Its going to be a slum.  But you're a runner.  You're top of the foodchain.  Play it smart and you're set.  Step on peoples toes, piss in the wrong gangs cornflakes, and you're gonna have issues.  Respect is everything.  That thrill gan might be headed out for a night of ultra-violence, but they stay away from the 300 block cause Johnny Runner lives there and you don't start shit with him.  The dude fraged 16 guys straight off before they could even get off their bikes.  Dudes frigging fast.  Don't mess with him.

Well hwo do we make it feel more like that, gritty, ditry, grey?  Descriptions.  Make the Barrens feel like what it should...ie Post Apochalyptic(sp?).  Staffers don't have to harrass players to do that.  Staffer jumps in and poses a few things that are happening around every now and then.  Poor stupid upperclass elven girl trying to slum it getting worked over by that gang in the corner of the bar.  The two gangers working over the shop keeper over for protection money as you walk down the street.  The go-gang that roars through on their bikes waving chains and smashing things on their way through.  The bum who gets mugged on the opposite street corner by the troll.  You dont' have to throw shit at the player to get the feel of the place.  The players should be given a situation.  They could go rescue that elven girl, maybe even get in good with her and her daddy, but that gang aint going to be happy, and theres going to be some sort of reprisal at some point.  You could pay that shopkeepers protection money...but then maybe the gang thinks you've gone soft and start coming to you about other peoples protection money till you're paying for the entire block.

Railroading players into scenes is just plain ignorant GMing, period, end of story.  It isn't fun and it isn't what Shadowrun is about.  You're given a situation, how do you react to it.  Life is like that to.  Situations and events happen around you every day and you react to them.  See someone trip and fall, you might go over to help them up, you may just walk by and laugh.  The issue of car theft.  Any car over 10k.  Re-frigging-diculouse.  I buy a phaeton...but i make it look like a old junker.  You propose to take it away just cause it cost a mint.

Yes and you need to make sure the players help support this.  Thats true.  The core players here should help do that.  Throw out a emit or two about the guy getting mugged down the street.  Don't nessicarily have to run the scene too if it starts going to combat.  Should be able to ask a staffer to run it real quick, if the other people around decide they wanna frag with the gangers.  Or if you do run it, there should be a way to send it in for both karma, and posible consequences for the individuals (depending on what happens ofcourse).  The core players here should be writing up a few rumors now and then.  We're all responsible for the flavor of New Seattle.  We may be players, but it'll be our place to play.  We can't expect the few staff online at the time to run every plot and fill us in with ambience 24/7.  We're running our own rp's.  We've got our own scenes.  We've got to set our own ambiance.  Now not everyone will do this, and not everyone will like to BUT the more you do it, more you show other people how to do it, the more other people will pick up and start doing it themselves.  When i started out roleplaying i was a one line poser.  Yup.  I'll admit it.  More i rped the more i saw people putting out these massive(well to me at the time) two-three line poses, and i wanted to get better (and felt prety bad for being so short) so i watched what they did and started doing more of that.  And i've continued on doing that.  The one thing we'd absolutely have to avoid with that is elitism though.

So thats what I think should be done.  Give us situations.  Give us ambiance.  Show us the world around us.  But don't nessicarily just jump us with more gangers than we can handle simply because we decided to go back to our pad in the Barrens.

Make a place for the townies, is all I can say. One thing to remember about the barren's is that there is, in some spot, a C-Zone called Touristville. Its not so post-apocoliptic, its not so gange infested... is it perfect? Not really, but its still there, and its a relativly safehaven for those characters that loathe the barrens as lawless underwaste.

But I'd agree that its all how you look at it. Its gritty, low down messy world, sure. But so is Gotham City of Batman fame.

Err, that didn't make much sense. School's taking up most of that. But what I mean is, if your gonna make it gritty, don't make it hopeless, evil, or even amoral. Sure, its post-apocolitic, which can mean thousands of daily injustices /or/ thousands of chances to be a hero. Save that elven girl in the bar (hey, maybe put on a mask and do it all like a runner might), pay that protection money anonomously, take your team and a couple kilos of C12 and mess around with that organlegging honorless gang thats threatening to rough up the more charitable, honorable, or community minded gang. There are all different kinds of leaders, gangs, and criminal organizations.

I mean, I guess I like playing a game where the characters can 'make a difference' in the cliche way. Its fun for me. Doesn't always have to be like that, but I'd just like to point out that it doesn't always have to be about hopeless gritty death. Yes, that sometimes is the genre, but where would Shadowrun be without a protagonist? The 'good guy' so to speak.

My two yen. It made sense somehow.

Hell yes.  What you've said above is right on the money, Runefire.

I expect and understand Noor and Melkir going "oOooOoo, nothing is safe!", I even appreciate that.  Scare tactics by the admins do as much to contribute to theme as the actual theme text.  If the theme says it's dangerous but the staffers say "Just play it cool and you'll never die," that sorta kills the buzz.  Staffers ought to, whenever asked, have just one answer ready for if people ask whether they're safe in the barrens: "No."

What Runefire has said above has really given me a flash of inspiration, though.  Let's all make our everyday scenes matter.  Revolutionary? Damn right it is.

The majority of everyday, non PrP/staffplot RP on a mux where you get karma for noms is bullshitting in a bar or club.  Your character gets more powerful at no risk to his life.  But that's gone.  There is no more incentive for people to pose incredibly mundane conversations with the same circle of 8-10 active players over and over, it gets you literally nothing (ok not nothing, but nothing much).  Once the introductions are out of the way on the new grid, we've got no reason to do uninteresting crap.  The whole "How are you? I'm cool, how are you? Alright. You?  Not bad.  What's happening? Not much.  You?" thing is what made me eventually hide in my apartment on Denver (and then the OOC room when my rent ran out).

Let me give an example of the kind of significant everyday RP I'm talking about.  A bar gets crowded enough that one of the players wants to make a little scene, asks OOCly, and gets the ok from everyone involved.  A kid runs into the place, yelling that someone needs to hide him.  The bartender doesn't want to let him, since bartenders are pretty cautious folk.  Do the runners threaten or bribe the bartender?  Cast invisibility on the kid?  Put a tablecloth on his head and tell him not to move?  Or do they even tell him to piss off, maybe even beat him up for ruining their drink?  Then a few mysterious suits, or gangers, or whatever come in looking for him.  Do the runners say where he is, pretend not to know anything, or maybe attack the guys just for a good workout?  And what happens when the kid leaves (if the runners actually save him)?  He says "Thanks, chummer," and bolts.  Chances are if that kind of thing happened IRL, you'd never hear about it again.  Some kid pissed off some people, none of it affects you, and realistically it is NOT a lead in to a series of action hinijnx that end up with a payout.  What it is, however, is a chance to flex your RP muscle and do something other than just talk.

That's pretty much just an elaboration on what Runefire suggested, but it got me excited so I had to go into more detail.  There's more than this sorta run of the mill scene you can run, too.  It could be anything- a BTL dealer trying to get people to buy, an undercover cop nosing around for information, a noob shadowrunner strutting around trying to provoke a fight and prove himself, anything your imagination can create.  It doesn't have to lead into a plot arc or even involve combat, you can still send in the log as an actual scene and perhaps be rewarded with karma (though the karma scheme isn't finalized so we don't know about logs) but more than that have a fulfilling and fun downtime experience on the NS grid.

Now, the major preference for this sort of thing would be to have a large and very active staff that do this kind of thing for us.  When a player self-runs a scene, there is a lot of temptation to showboat.  They create a situation that ends up showing how moral or immoral they are, how fast or tough they are, etc.  This needs to be avoided because it's just like RPing with yourself while there are bystanders.  "Some shit happens and then my dude whips out his gun and totally caps the bitches" is what scenes like that could turn into, and what a lot of PrPs have been in the past, so it requires a degree of care by the players.  Staffers are again preferred, since they can do whatever the hell they want, they can award karma or deduct your gear/money should you lose them right then and there, and they can make the scenes develop into literally anything, whereas at a certain point the player's authority to affect the world ceases and they have to turn over GM power to a judge.

I have one point of contention with Runefire, perhaps, and that's that while shadowrunners on the whole are the top of the food chain in the slums, WE as starting characters are not.  Definitely a gang has to think twice about fighting someone who could be a cyber ninja monkey, but until you have some street cred or notoriety built up (both of which have rules in the new system) there aren't going to be gangs who are afraid to go to your neighborhood, and they're not going to cross to the other side of the street just because you are a card-carrying corporate shadowslave.  However, you're spot on when talking about how gangs really exist.  They don't prowl the streets looking for murder victims; gangers are about scoring cred and drugs and breaking stuff.  If you piss them off, they'll come after you, but if you go out of your way to show them respect or just stay out of their way when they're on a rampage (easy since they're not quiet about it) you should be pretty much safe from pointless violence.  Or at least, as safe as you can be... OooOoOoo!

Well starting character or not you're still a shadowrunner...top of the foodchain to me.  And even if you don't consider yourself that, you're still a few steps up from ganger (perhapse made it to hired goon!).  So they might not fear you as Johnny Runner.  Might not fear your block.  That comes with time.  But I was shooting more for in general than just starting characters.  To start off with you may just be left alone, occasionaly ribbed by the gangers (or forced to buy the first round at the bar) but after a while, after a few rumors (possibly even started by yourselves you unscrupulouse people you...not that i would...ever think of doing that myself...no...never....moving on...nothing to see here...) you might find them giving you a bit more space and buying you your first round.

Scare tactics?

If Noor and Melkir say you're going to die, then take it as a promise. If they say 'no safe harbor', don't even look for one. It is the GMs that run the game, that control what happens to your character, that decide on Theme. Not you, not your fellow players. Just the GMs.

If they say the Barrens is going to be hell on earth, dress approperately.

With that said I don't think anyone will be picked on, killed, maimed or otherwise hindered outside of the name of fun. If getting picked on, killed, maimed or otherwise hindered ICly isn't your idea of fun, well... there is always Denver.

-Hades

This is way off topic, but could you guys try to be a bit more concise? I'm old, and these hugs posts are killing my eyes. 

Being railroaded into scenes just cause i exist as a player, in a area shadowrunners frequent in theme is not my idea of fun.  And secondly, Denver is getting as bad as seatle when i left it in 2002 :p, and lets not forget its not 4th eddition.  As a side note as well coulda sworn these boards were for us the players to voice our opinions and have some input into things.

Anyways...onto helping out Noor.

Simply put, attacking players with gangs is silly.  Giving them situations to respond to that are in theme is good.  Theres a few players on x street, admin pops in, and throws out a situation or two 'upperclass elven girl trying to slum it getting worked over by a few gangers in one ally, guy getting mugged on the corner, gangers driving through trashing this and that'.  Then the players get to react to something.  Maybe they want to save the girl, but the gangs not going to be happy, maybe even have a reprisal later.  Maybe they save the guy from being muged...or they do but they're too late and the guys dead.  Maybe they pick a fight with the gangers.  All of these things go on in the barrens.  All add to the flavor, and the dangerouse gritty feel without having to attack players or steal their stuff right off the bat just cause we exist.

This is why all ShadowRunners need a high edge see. With high Edge, you can hand of god more often see. So when you can't pay off that gang, or when you decide you're bad enough to take on the 8 humans, 4 orks, and the troll all at the same time, you can hand of god and just be in a coma for a while, missing some limbs that need to be replaced, etc.

Personally I don't think Melkir or Noor is going to just drop a random 'Screw you, you are dead' encounter on people unless they absofuckinglutely deserve it. I trust them to behave in a responsible manner. I trust them to help make the game fun.

Since I've managed to break the new MUX twice in four hours, I figured I should stop coding and start posting.

A gang randomly attacking a player - not really IC _in most cases_. There are always exceptions.

However, a shadowrunner unknown to the gang being harassed for air tax that, instead, lips off... well, that's another matter entirely.

Stating opinions is indeed what the boards are for. However, the issue that's coming up is that everyone is telling us what is and isn't tolerable. Nobody is posting (other than Rheiv, kudos to him) "This is my opinion. What do you think?" Everyone is posting, "This is the way it has to be."

Please, people, try to work together on this. I'm trying to design a game that will allow as many styles of play as possible. Some people like the inter(meta)human drama. Others lke to shoot stuff, and not do much else. To develop a game that allows as many people the type of play they wish ?is probably impossible and idealistic, yet it's what I want to do.

To start with, we have the Barrens. It's a dangerous place. That's thematic. If you have a PC that doesn't fit with that particular locale, then I suggest you save him/her/it until we're able to complete the next leg of the project, because the Barrens is ugly and dark. Create some throwaways. Your PC stands a pretty good chance of death during the beta. But we're not just going to walk in and say, "Bang bang, you're dead." We're going to let you enjoy the battle for life and death. The beta will be testing a lot of thngs, And all this endless speculation, based on what people have read in their college sociology courses and what's happened in the past, only make the waters more murky.

Noor, while I can't speak for others, I can say what I mean by my style of argument.

When I say "this is how it has to be," I am giving my opinion.? But I'm not just saying "Hey here's what I think blah," because I have a lot more thoughts than that.? If I'm going to provide a long argument I've come up with about the way things ought to be, I'm not going to preface it with "Hey just my opinion."? That's pointless, if it were just my opinion I wouldn't try to bring in facts and support for my position.? It isn't just my opinion, it's my argument, and to water down an argument just for the sake of appearing less forceful is a really ineffective thing to do.? Obviously I WANT my argument to be listened to, taken seriously, and at the time when I write it, used in the game.? If I didn't I'd just bite my tongue.

So, I'm arguing.? I'm not setting conditions on what I need done in order to play the game, I'm not trying to control things.? Nothing is better, in fact, than having someone shoot down an argument, because if someone can do that it means they've hit on something I missed, and I'm now the better for it.? And if someone tries to shoot down my argument and fails, I'll let them know that with a counterargument.

All in all, I would hope that us all going nuts like we do is helpful to you.? You get a wide variety of dissenting opinions and arguments and counterarguments to each point; since you're the director it's your job to make up your mind out of all the chaos on the forums, regrettably.? It's not an easy thing to do, for sure?

All I can do is assure you that if you make a decision and say "It has been decided" I sure as hell won't throw a fit if it didn't go my way, nor will I put much, if any time into arguing about it.? I'm? not staff, I don't want to be staff, and when staff lock a forum because a decision has been made, that's as good as done, to me.? I know you and the rest of the staff are going to do your best and it will be awesome, even if you systematically reject each argument I make.? People like me (law school candidates) just love to argue, and you're going to have to either let us or make forum policies against it ^.^

Hades, I wasn't trying to suggest that the admins didn't mean it when they said things were dangerous.  I just meant by scare tactics that they'll tend to exagerate.  They make it sound like you'll get your head lopped off for no reason in a d6 roll of a 1, when in reality it will be a lot more fun and a lot less arbitrary than that.  If they are just gonna roll d6s to execute players at random, then it's not much of a game

No, I am afraid people going nuts is not helpful. It tends to spur attacks that carry over from the forum to the game. And we do have policies listed. They're the "Forum Policies" posted on the Policy board.

The misapprehension that stating, "This is my opinion, <insert opinion here>," is a watering down of one's passion is common, but incorrect. It's about being interactive, rather than defensive. I undertand that people are defensive as a rule when it comes to SRS, but this isn't SRS. That said, we still need people to behave cooperatively.

I want this MUSH to reflect as many points of view as possible. But players and staff alike have to posit those points of view in a mature manner. -Telling- people how to play is what caused many problems in the old game. I will not have that in this one.

Agreed.

As for Noor...

Not saying what i'm saying is the way you have to do it. ?Its the way I think would be best. ?You're making it dangerouse, your adding to theme, but you're not randomly attacking shadowruners (people who ARE supposed to be in the Barrens thematicaly!). ?I just completely disagree with the idea of railroading people into scenes like that. ?Granted I'm all up for my fair share of gangers coming in to bust up the bar i'm in with a few other people now and then. ?When it happens every thursday, i won't go there on thursday. ?If it happens everytime i go to a bar because you're trying to kill the character...thats a different story. ?

I'm just pointing out theres a, in my opinion, better way to add even MORE theme and grittyness and mini plots, and more FUN in the shadowrun universe, than random ganger attacks just cause i'm in the barrens EVER could. ?Runners belong in the Barrens. ?Attack them too much because thats the only way you think you can convey the 'dangerouse' aspect of the Barrens, and once you've got more of the grid...no ones gonna wanna play there. ?Its like Denver with the Aztlan sector. ?Great places, wonderful descs, great sights. ?The admins have just harrased everyone soooo much for even thinking about going over into the sector for a meal at the high class restraunt there no ones gone there in like a year. ?And afterall, the beta players will probably be your core players once it goes really live, and if we're already gun shy on going to the barrens because we've seen you attack us for just being a pc in the barrens, why would we go there? ?And if that happens, you just lost a section of grid virtualy. ?

NOTE: ?I'm not saying you'll do that. ?I'm not saying thats whats going to happen if you do what you've been talking about. ?I'm saying you highly run the risk. ?I'm saying theres other ways of doing what you're trying to acomplish without risking scaring people off that portion of the grid.