The horse is dead, lets leave it alone and let it go. Now on a totally unrelated note!

Organizations

Since we're stepping well away from the whole Org PC, which means no PC Gang Members, Yakuza, Mafia, etc. I could see a lot of PC's who are -out- of said organization now through their own faked death, or just picking up and leaving and the like. Are we going to be looking at backgrounds who have such in their history ala.

I was in the Yakuza, even though I am half chinese half american and a woman I was rising to the very top but then I had to cut off my left thumb and so I stole 250 thousand Nuyen and faked my death and got away clean man clean with my best bodyguard Gogo!

Should such a thing be frowned upon? Do we stop people from making PC gangs once they're IC? A bunch of runners down on their luck unable to get into the run scene anymore would make a frightening gang if you think about it. Almost special forces military response on a street level in some cases. Well, maybe not Spec Forces I still think those guys tend to chew up most running teams but still...

Special Forces, is another good example of what you could end up seeing to much of in a background. My character is X bad ass because he was in Y Special Forces unit for Z amount of years and somehow left the Military with all of his ware/foci/gear etc.

Anyways I know this has been discussed some in the past but I have to ask due to the possibility of a 'question' based 'application' instead of a background. I know in Beta this is not so big a deal as people might be dying left and right but I would be saddened if every second or third PC was one of the above because of ultra-lax background requirements.

On a completely different note:

I want Pie and Chips, but I don't want a Geico quote.

The way I look at it now is, if the military is more to their background than just a way to justify those high skills, then fine.  But if the military is only mentioned for a couple of lines as a way of saying 'Yeah, they taught me these nasty skills', then I advise leaving the military out of it.  It's one of the things not suggested, but accepted.  And there is always the suggestion to change once too many have similiar structure.  But to outright deny military types if there is too many?  In my opinion, it probably won't happen.  But if the situation for leaving the military, or entering the military is too outrageous, it will be denied and asked to change.

Same thing goes with leaving the Orgs.  If it's feasible, it's acceptable.  The Chinese-American wouldn't be accepted, however, into the Japanese gang.  And we will ask to make sure that you /know/ your character will be hunted and possibly found and killed.  Background standards may be relaxed, but you still have to have all your ducks in a row...  Damn, I'm using that phrase too much.

PC gangs once IC?  That isn't really my department, so I'll let one of the others  comment on that.  But is there really a difference between PC gangs and PC teams of runners?  It's a group of players who have joined together for the enjoyment of all and to go burn things down.  

I want pie, but not chips, and I want the Geico gecko.

Well I would imagine the difference would be in the goals of said group of PC's. A group of PC Gangers would be about taking over turf, extorting money, roughing up common folks to get their money, possibly branching out into BTL dealings, prostitution, organ legging, etc. These are things which will affect that section of the game world in a much more lasting and impacting way than a team of runners most likely.

A team of runners usually has the bottom line in mind with a loose set of morals that may or may not be flexible depending. I would think a team of Runners would really not be bothered with the whole turf gang mindset except when necessary to keep a hidey-hole safe and sound. While you could technically group them both up as 'gangs' as a 'gang' is a gathering of lawless individuals intent to break the law, the differences between the two are massive.

On the other note: I don't think all backgrounds that deal with military or organizations should be rejected out of hand, I was just curious as to what manner of controls were going to be in place if this 'questionaire' style background is accepted as standard part and parcel to getting approved.

And yes, the Geico Gecko is cute.

The questionaire that I put up on another thread was a thought to what an admin should look for within a background, and if a person really has no talent in writing a story.  We are still going to have regular backgrounds, it wasn't posted as a way to get around it.  There is a thought to a web style background with drop down menus for those questions or a similiar set, but at the moment it seems unlikely. And there would still be a place to enter free style answers, as at least half of those cannot be answered with one sentence.  Even if it becomes a quick answer/question bit, we would still have to expand upon the important bits.

I meant the team/gang thing as something that could happen after chargen.  A group of people get together to play.  If one takes on runs and the other streets, it's not something that is written about as a part of the generation process and therefore I can't keep it out.   But i think that creating PC gangs that take on random street denizens and other PCs will be frowned upon. 

I'm all about explaining things.

Well, the staff are really going to have to confront the idea of player run orgs once the +places code is running.  If I can rent the space for an electronics shop or a club, it doesn't make much sense that I'd have to shadowrun to pay the rent...  But then again, it doesn't make sense that a small business I open pays for itself without any action on my part.

Regardless of that, I would envision any PC gangs or other orgs being centered around a public +place, ie a gang's favorite hangout or a fixer's preferred dark and smoky restaurant.  That would give your hooligan PCs some reason to exist; the only turf gaining and people hassling you can really do outside of a public hangout would be in a plot, and even then it would get pretty old.  And you can't just stand around and bother every player that comes into the "outside" room of a +place, because then people would stop going there...  If I were going to make a gang, I would want to make a cool club or bar for my crew to hang at, and we'd act as security etc, only roughing up people who cause trouble.

In terms of BGs, what Dreamer has said makes me happy    I've been told on MUXes that my BG wasn't acceptable because "they don't support orgs," when my character was an ex-thug-for-hire from the mafia.  Plus, I wasn't even italian so there's no WAY they'd pay me to undertake dangerous and possibly suicidal missions for their interests.  Huh-uh. Unrealistic.  Even though I had about 6 pages of BG explaining it.  I'm looking forwards to a chargen where the approving admins are trying to determine "is it feasible?" instead of "do I like it?"

As total unoffical Military-fanboy of SRS, I'd like to address just that bit on Special Forces characters.

I remember bits and peices of something someone else said on a dumpshock forum once, but generally, its this. A starting character can't really be special forces. They just don't have the points for it. Maybe /rusty/ special forces, or uber SWAT, or enforcers, or some elite deal, but not really special forces.

That being said, I think it might be possible, depending on what scale you are, to pull it off. So I disagree with my own statement.

However, you should really make it intereasting. How about some character that isn't wanted for desertion. Or a true Merc. Or something like that.

Also, with regards to ware. One should keep in mind that in an all volunteer force, such as the CAS's or UCAS's, ware is kinda an iffy thing. Because it goes in you, its half training-type investments that you can leave with, and half equipment that the Army might need. Also, with the documented, irreversable health effects (Reduced essence) that installing heavy ware causes, they couldn't just rip any ware they put in you out after your done, espeically if were talking about fairly irreversable procedures like Enhanced Articulation, Bone Lacing, or Toner.

Also, installing forbidden ware might be regulated towards more Black Ops or unknown units, with folks that have /left/ the radar of conventional special forces all together. If you were still in the regular military (regular meaning you still have a rank and belong to a unit that's listed in a budget somewhere), you would probably get, at the most, restricted cyberware that you could license later, or, depending on how you view permits, get approval to install right there.

Now, some of this will be gone over in Rheiv's 'dissertation' but certain cyberware might be offered as an enlistment bonus, the basic eyes and ears for example, or a smartlink (One peice of ware easily removable because its an attachment to a cybereye, which would make it much more prevalent).

In summation, 'ware doesn't equal 'equipment' in the fact that the army will rip it out and put it in someone else. It equals a middle line that a person would most likley keep, even in 'special forces', so long as they didn't go 'black.' As for equipment, well, you should really RP knowing some sort of Arms Dealer. I don't think you can stretch things far enough to keep your assualt rifle. Or maybe you could, but only if you bought your weapons privatly for combat use. (I think you can do that now. That or I'm misreading all these gun magazines).

Anyway, my two cents on military characters in general. Gotta consider how the world might work. Its shadowrun, yes, but the Army can't go around ruining the health of every soldier who joins by installing and then ripping out key cyberware. Plus, used cyberware is generally icky.

Well, no, not really, at least not in Iraq and Afghanistan (the only areas of operation that really matter right now). Per standing orders from CENTCOM (http://www.mnf-iraq.com/regulations/go1a.pdf), the "[p]urchase, possession, use or sale of privately owned firearms, ammunition, explosives, or the introduction of these items into the USCENTCOM AOR" is damn well against the rules. To do so is to set yourself up for a court-martial. Is that to say no member of the U.S. Armed Services deployed there ever has a personal weapon, no. I've heard anecdotal evidence to the contrary, but they all talk about sidearms, not rifles. More importantly, I seriously doubt any member of the armed forces is EVER going to use a privately-owned weapon as their primary armament. The fact is that soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines are all issued their weapons by their branch, and they remain the property of the U.S. Government.

As for whether this holds in the 2070s, I have no idea. I see no reason why it wouldn't, and I'd suggest playing it on the safe side anyway. Best not to take too many liberties with the theme.

Although I do agree with you in principal, that yeah, with a good rationale anything is possible, as that's how I run my TT games, there are some things that no amount of fluff is going to cover up. If I write twelve pages about how my character was personally adopted by Dunkelzahn, then put into stasis when he died, then woken up to try and get him back, well, five, twelve, or even a hundred pages isn't enough to write away something utterly, utterly stupid.

Ahh. Well, I mainly ment firearms. On a lot of the websites you go to, they have lots of sites dedicated to 'military sales', and you do see a lot of advertisments on sidearms or equipment aimed towards the military market, giving one the idea that some equipment, if not weapons then at /least/ LBE or something, is purchased seperatly by some folks in the current major conflicts. That being said though, yeah, your right in that it would probably be best to avoid taking too many liberties. Besides, if you even partialy deal with the Shadow's with your character (and I don't think anyone's done anything /totally/ legal) getting that assualt rifle or equipment after you leave the service shouldn't be horribly difficult.

My note on the 'ware still stands however. Should be thought of as more of a vaccination then issuing you an armor vest.

I personally thing that as long as the item has an availability lower than whatever the chargen cutoff is (12?), it doesn't matter how you got it.  Chargen does put limits on what you can buy, and you have to use buildpoints to get the money to buy the items.  Don't treat anyone different no matter what their background is - if they put out the points for the cash for a sniper rifle, their background could say that they built it from scratch (assuming the stats supported that), that they stole it from the military (again, depending on their actually being able to do such), or that a friend gave it to them (once again, stats - in this case contacts).  Points spent on cash at chargen represent the level of equipage for your character, not what you paid for that equipment.  You can assume that without a really good story behind it, that no one would give you/sell you/let you walk off with anything harder to get than the cutoff. This also includes taking beta and delta ware back out of the bodies of anyone who has it....

Private purchases of other equipment does occur, and is in fact encouraged. The Army, at least, has a reimbursement program for certain purchases, https://www.jagcnet.army.mil/JAGCNETIntranet/Databases/Claims/USARCS.nsf/(JAGCNetDocID)/PROTECTIVE+GEAR+REIMBURSEMENT+PROGRAM?OpenDocument, though interestingly, it hasn't been used very widely. Maybe just not publicized very well.

As for ware, fine. However, when vaccinations cost thousands of nuyen a pop, the gummint ain't gonna hand 'em out like candy, that's for damn sure.

Ahh, reimbursement program. Thats one of the options that some folks came up with regarding ware. But, as such, were not talking about 'ware that would cost thousands of nuyen. More expensive ware would probably be reserved for other folks. But with the modular cybereye and ear systems, they /can/ add eyes, and then install and remove the smartlink attachment. Also, Low-Light and Thermographic are rather cheap, but mainly were talking about just the useful applications, communication and display wise, of even cheap cybereyes and ears, that would most likley be installed. When you move on into wires and the like, we're starting to enter into private allocation of equipment, or ware given only to advanced infantry (82nd, 101st, Special Operations Capable MEU's, 10th Mountain) or special forces units. Contracts and the like would most likley be involved, etc.

Sorry if thats just hashing over the same old stuff. I'm sick.

Contracts are always involved when you join the military. And yes, the 'thousands' is an SR3 thing. So sue me. But since the trend in SR4 seems to be that (almost) everything cyber can do, non-cyber can do just as well, then...well, implanting just isn't efficient. Anyways, enough blathering from me. Cookie, anyone?

Actually....I think there is one thing that Cyber can do better then non-cyber: Not be knocked loose or ripped off in combat, which would be good for a military unit. But..then again..considering in many cases the Corps are better armed then the Government....because sometimes it is more profitable to put out the extra money on something then go to the lowest bidder...

While I doubt Fanpro intended it to be used as a set precedent for what would be considered military standard operating procedures, I would like to note that even Tir Ghosts and the Red Samurai don't have anything more extensive than wired reflexes and cyberears/eyes listed in the quick reference section, which hits me as pretty reasonable. Ware is pretty reliable and common in the 2070s, but the military would have to deal with corp supply contracts and maintenance, issues that only really come up when you're dealing with a few thousand units of the stuff. Toss in that ware isn't easily transferred, as many have stated, and I would think the military would make use of it, but probably with only a half dozen or so types of ware in common circulation at any given time.