I don't have the time for anything but a short reply, but I will follow it up with actual real life (real life?) examples of how the scale will work and appear, for the moment however. I make this simple observation.

This thread needs more cowbell.

As you may or may not have guessed from the other staffers starting their statements off with ?I didn?t do it?. I did. This karma policy is my idea, top to bottom. So, I?ll take the blame, and the praise.

I?ve been told lately at work that my long ranting posts do nothing for no one and that I need to make a bulleted list if I want people to ready anything so, here are the highlights.

• It isn?t written in stone
• Old and New players need to be able to play the same game
• Karma != Risk
• Karma = Roleplaying
• A focus of NS is to provide themely rewards/advancement
• We have an idea of how many rewards make up an arc
• The tentative arc cap for beta is 20
• We DO want feedback on the process

If you want to know more, read on.

Let?s break it down like this, it started off as a method of controlling and giving access to the karma distribution commands. Meaning, judges and perhaps even-unstaff-type people could use the karma commands in PrP cases, or other circumstances and no one would have to worry about it being out of hand.

From there it migrated into a way to control and close the karma gap between old and new players. Now, a leap you might not be able to make is that there was just as much noise (more actually) when this was put together as there is now, and the +award item was expected to generate that. It is an idea radically different than to our prior system (and many similar systems).

One of the largest concerns was the perception of ?reward vs risk?, that it would be ?insulting? to get a low amount of karma for a higher risk run. With the reduction in karma in general, and in cash, etc, as well as a personal desire of my own I am focusing the story and the world interaction to create a different reward structure from karma. There have always been exceptional players that knock out their own niche, but we want the system to support this as well. There are a number of other story-based rewards, like access to information, contacts, gear, suppliers, etc that will be part of this ?reward package?.

Yes, people will have to adjust to ?building? to a karma amount, rather than expecting two or three per run. This should be familiar for people who have depended on noms for karma. Also, yes. It is possible to get the same amount of awards for Bar RP as it is for a run. You know what; I want the run 10 times over the Bar RP. So, regardless of reward, I?ll go for the run. That?s just me, we have a lot of social RPers on SRS, and rather than the wonderful ?nom? circles that provide their main staple of karma, they now have an equal earning potential. I imagine you could extrapolate that I?m separating the game theme and the game system, because a BarRPer could indeed raise pistols with that karma they got from being clever or witty.

This is a significant adjustment to what everyone is used to, and it may be a bit unnerving, but we?re not insane and we?re not on autopilot. I should have used more words before when I said basically ?try it and see? but that?s what we?re going to do here.

Now for some expected ?numbers?, using super-math provided by the Erl-monster (far beyond my understanding) we?ve designed this ?curve? which isn?t much like a bell, but more like a hill you?d like to sled down in the winter (until you got to the cliff). We have an idea of the number of awards that we expect to give during the arc, and it is not a small number (fyi). This works with the formula to help us scale the curve.

The cap on the curve isn?t going to be a round number, we WANT you to be able to hit the cap, and still while earning at a good clip (As close to the end of the arc as possible). Once the arc ends, the cap will be raised a determined amount and the curve will automagically readjust and start ponying out better +awards for those with karma, however, the curve should remain mostly the same for new players as it was for you to start, it?s just that they?ll receive the award increment for longer. I imagine that arc endings are predetermined events (within a specific time frame) and we as story staff need to fill that obligation, else everyone gets to get pissed at us for stunting their karma growths (more than we?re already doing).

The number of karma expected for the beta arc cap is 20. That 20 karma is for a six month period. The increment for the first release arc is expected to be twice that increment (so the cap may be 60) for the same six month period. It basically breaks down to getting around 130%, 90%, and 60% of the cap as you move through the bands in the curve.

Of course, throughout writing this I thought, maybe we should reverse it. After all, karma means more as your skills get higher?

I only got slightly offended by 'ignorant' :-)

I must admit by being still somewhat confused by Melkirs response.

Personally though to weigh in, this 20 karma cap sounds about reasonable for this 'story arc' thing. Cept what exactly defines a 'story arc'. And does it affect everyone? So say I'm billy bob joe the joyboy in the bar. I dont go on runs. I whore my ass out to teddy the troll cause he pays the best cause no one wants to get near him.

Meanwhile over here I have Johnny Boy the Ganger, Phillip the fixer and Loyd the jazzed up razorboy turned shadowrunner.

Now our joyboy and Fixer may not wind up going on runs. Afterall we'll just assume for this that they get plenty of RP that makes them happy without runs. They like social RP.

Meanwhile Johnny likes social RP specifically around gangs, but likes the odd run. And Loyd loves runs. ANd hates bar scenes. (Which is pretty much where I'm at to be honest. I really get sick of bar RP after 12+ years of it on MUSHes)

So we'll say Loyd and Johnny get in on a run thats part of a story arc they get their karma etc. They hit their preprescribed caps what ever..

Does this story arc cap also affect Philip and Billy Bob? I mean certain I can see ways where you can even with pure social RP invovle them in said story arc. But we'll just assume for this that somehow they've managed to not wind up in a single related scene etc to said story arc. Yet RP on a regular basis, pose well so on and so forth.

How does the story arc cap affect them? Or is it specific per arc your in? Say one staffer has one arc going but at the same time anotehr staffer has a second one running but with a different twist and flavour to it? Do the caps stay the same but you technically (between the two arcs) have a cap of 40 instead of 20? (As opposed to being in both arcs and still being effectively capped at 10 for each for the total of 20)

Not sure if I'm being clear since I'm typing this several hours after getting home from work. And I'm a touch tired.

No worries, the 'arc' thing is a bit new to SR games (for the most part) A story arc is a overlying plot. It 'affects' everyone, as in, everyone is involved just by the nature of being 'in the game'. The arc has several objectives and outcomes (as designed) which may or may not be revealed ahead of time, or what rumors circulate within the game, etc. Storytellers, judges, what have you recieve pieces of the arc to parry out and determine outcomes from.

Let's say the arc is Stop Big Bad Corporation from Destroying Council Island. That's the 'true objective', and is as set. A run around that may be for billy joe, bobby, and boxcar to go out and do datasteal for Toys R Us, it may not look connected, but the outcome determins the set of actions available for the next round. As expressed in other threads, it isn't on rails, the 'true objective' may fail, ie, runners help Big Bad to destroy council island (not very likely). A whole reversal isn't really a expected scenario, nor is the objective meant to be as black and white. The karma cap in relation to arc is a period of time where that's the most anyone can make, so an arc lasts 6 months. 20 karma is the top, if you bust your ass in a bar 20 hours a day and get the +awards for it, or you take fifteen bullets to the chest over the course of those 6 months, you have the same potential. Doesn't mean you'll both reach it.

Another thing to note is that the karma curves are 'potentials' not guarentees for each player. You have to earn it.

P.S. This doesn't exclude staffers who want to run one-off or training plots, nor does it outlaw PrPs. These are just things we need to incorporate.

Ohh. So you guys are NOT gonna pull down our pants and shove the "JOO GETZ NO MORE KARMA" stick up our asses?  Who would have thought?

A stick?! Never. We'd use something with a handle so not to injure our wrists.

And we would lift skirts, not just pants. We are equal opportunity shovers.

I understand this point, I mean, I intend on playing a technomancer (and so are a lot of people from the sound of it). This may be the breaking point for the idea; I think its something we'll discover as the builds come in. But I don't discount it as a valid concern.


96 karma per arc, so 18 months from now you would expect people to have 288 karma? The karma you'll be granted will accelerate after beta due to the difference in cap. An "adventure" per session seems a bit much, I remember running the old "adventures" and some of them had 4-8 runs within each. 4 Karma per week is an amazing amount, usually garnered from a good '+nom' and a health amount of run karma on SRS. Our most staunch karma whores average about 2 a week, making it roughly double the tentative cap.



Prp's are going to be allowed, and just as stated all karma is granted via +Award, so PrPs would fall into the cap restrictions as well. And... why you would ever want to jump into the story arc plot.. is.. because you enjoy it. Which is kinda why you play?


I think we can all sort the signal from the noise, try to chill a bit 

I think the most important thing to look at is the system in total, rather then it's effect on each individual character or archetype. It will certainly make playing a magician or a technomancer challenging, because of all the factors you mentioned. Any sort of karma cap hurts those types of characters, which is certainly worthwhile discussion. I'm not sure the correct tack is to compare a mundane hacker to a technomancer, though, straight out of chargen. At this point, the transparency exists to see that from an efficiency standpoint, it is more efficient to make a hacker then a technomancer, so by choosing to make a technomancer with that knowledge, you are choosing it for style rather then improvement. At least with the foreknowledge that you are going to suck, you can make an educated choice. I realize that's not a very satisfying answer, but at least there is an alternative -- what's the mundane equivalent to a magician?


Actually, the more I think about it, the more I don't think it's a bad idea to try to even the game out. I think the most important part is being equitable and fair in rewards (at least if looking at this solely from a karma point of view). The part of a diminishing system that gets the most is not that my continued success is actually damaging me, and that with a minimal of effort someone could easily 'catch up' to me, which further devaluates the effort I'd put in. On a microscale like 20 karma, that would only be amplified (Could you imagine having 500 awards and only being barely a karma ahead of a character with only say 100 at the end of a year? And for reference that's a guesstamite, but I can break out the math if anyone is having problems sleeping.) That is the part I have the most problem with.


There have been times in the past when there was a strong competition to maintain the highest karma to day ratio. I would love to say I won, being just behind the curve of 1 karma/day (somewhere around 0.98) but I know of at least two other times where people have been over 1.00 for a duration exceeding 6 months. 200 karma in the first year was always an attainable goal when activity was high, though in recent times may have been much harder. Hopefully we are aiming for activity levels on par with the more active (rather then less active) times, especially with use of a system with diminished rewards. An average of 1 award/day shouldn't be hard. A run may net you 2-5 awards, participation in a random scene 1-2, and then you can fill in with public roleplay ... anyone can bust out some roleplay in an hour or two that is definitely worth an award.


So, trying to be part of the solution rather then the problem, I gave it some more thought. First off, I am all in favor of diminishing the karma value of an award, but I believe I am opposed to any sort of sliding scale as part of a devaluation for all the reasons that have been mentioned. However, 'catching up' new players is worth thinking about, and I have a theory.

If you want a cap of 20 karma for the first arc, and you determine how many +awards someone could get at best in that six month period. Then divide 20 karma by that number and round down to the best looking number per award. If you figure 200 awards in 6 mos, each award is worth .1; 250 awards is 0.075 award/karma, etc. If you think 500 awards, then each award is worth 0.04. Frankly, I'd go high for awards ... why not give away 3-7 for a run, 2 for good bar RP, etc? Every time I got a karma I felt good and felt like I was progressing, and while that feeling will diminish slightly, it's still progress and still a 'feel good' that someone thinks you're doing cool stuff.

Next, 'catching people up'. When someone starts 'late', each award is worth more then baseline, so they catch up faster. At the end of an arc, either use an arbitrary percentage of the cap (I'd suggest 70%) or another statistical formula (better would be to use the mean of the MUSH), and set that as your 'standard' karma value at the start. Everyone below that figure for this arc gains karma at a faster rate (geometric depreciation would be appropriate in this case) until they level off at the 'standard' rate. At that point, everyone is 'starting' the same, while the people who are ahead of the curve are still ahead and don't feel slighted, and there is still room to be better then the other guy for all the people playing catch up. More effort and you're ahead, less effort and you're breaking even.

This will create a weird curve of karma distribution over the course of six months, but everyone will be on roughly the same page within a short time, and addresses a number of problems, including karma bloat, the desire to allow new people to catch up to the established characters, doesn't piss off the people who are working harder then average, and finally still has an 'effective' karma cap that people aren't going to hit up hard against.

Potential problems are that (a) Karma-based characters get the shaft, but with any kind of karma cap, that's to be expected, and as I mentioned earlier at least witht he foreknowledge you can make an educated decision. (b) You need to set the karma/award value low enough that people CAN'T hit the hard ceiling of a karma cap. Readjusting it after the fact will make people cry, and if people hit that, well, they get screwed. :/ Advantages are that actions can have a better range of award. No more giving 1 karma just 'cuz someone went on a run. If people did awesome you can give then 7 awards (.35 karma or less) and if someone just showed up you can give then 1 or 2.

I wonder if anyone actually reads what I write. I need an editor to make me write less. Or a job.

There's a couple of things I need to say to Runefire32.

First, and foremost, while you may think that a technomancer is actually less than a hacker, you might note that a technomancer can ACTUALLY start with a resonance of 6, thus supplying a system and program cap of six. ?And they can continue to grow beyond that limit, whereas being a hacker means I'm stuck in chargen at 5s, and later on at 6s (unless I have some miraculous plots gaining me some really wiz gear).

Mages, need karma, samurai need karma. ?Sr4 has been pretty well adjusted to incorporate fairly between the two. ?How much karma and nuyen does X archetype need, how versatile are they when they get there, and how powerful are they in their primary role? ?I can chargen a decent single-weapon wielder, who is also a pretty decent hacker in Sr4, straight from the get-go. ?But I will never be able to be as good of a hacker as a technomancer can be. ?Of course, as a previous example of mine has mentioned, that all doesn't so much matter in SR4 so much. ?More dice is great, versatility is great, but really you've gotta just be smart and lucky with enough skills/abilities to support that in whatever way you want.

Onward...

If the concern you are trying to make is that the most powerful hacker/rigger in the game doesn't advance fast enough for you to keep up with a normal mundy with tech (who has a very HARD cap that starts the moment they get a couple thousand in nuyen), than I must disregard your problem as a concern for the system. ?I'm sorry, you wanna play a technomancer with all its cool jazzy bits, than you lose out in one way to gain in another. ?I wanna play a physad who dodges (despite not being focused in combat) who also hacks, rigs and does social stuffs. ?And guess what? ?I'm really boned on points, and my character won't be advancing ANY time soon if I want to keep her the way she is... so you think 20 karma is a hard hit, I do too. ?But I don't care, I made the character in mind to the kind of person I am and the things I think are fun to play. ?To WANT to play a character who is by virtue of the system slower (if not slowest as you argue with technomancer) to advance, I must also be prepared to advance slowly. ?It makes logical sense.

The old D&D 2nd ed. game was a great example of that. ?By level 10 a wizard outshined any other class in the game. ?But to get there they had to advance the slowest by quite a bit. ?I played a lot of mages, they were fun, they took patience as a player and the willingness to start out extremely under powered.

If your concern was more along the lines that EVERYONE was going to be advancing slowly, even the person who just wants to shoot with pistols, than I'd be worried. ?However that's simply not the case, and I am looking forward to an SR MUX that is finally putting what Shadowrunning is all about on the table as awards. ?Politics, Runs, and Character Growth through various means (including not so safe experimental stuff potentially? ?*hinthint*). ?Previously it felt all too much like D&D, you do a run get your xp and your boons from a random chart. ?Than, you all sell it and split the gold. ?However, you can't split an uber fixer, or an experimental piece of cyberware that one of your buddies wants to implant. ?That's the stuff of legends, that's the stuff of Sr4, and along the way you'll get better at what you do. ?Some of us just won't be the uber god-does-everything maniac till much later in the game. ?But no worries, you'll get there too, and as a technomancer you'll far outshine my hacking abilities in no time!

Why do you need to stay competitive? Also is competitiveness all about the stats?

I of course could be out of my depth here, but rarely do I ever see alot of Deckers on at once, normally it's one.. and that person isn't so much a decker as they are a Face, or a Theif, or something else who ended up spending cash on a deck and karma on computers. Plus this is not WOW, we don't all trudge out of downtown and adventure into PK land where we kill each other(I hope) It's a game about having fun, bringing your view point and your style to the table is alot more important then bringing your dice. If it wasn't so, they'd stop putting the P.I. archetype in the book (I know I'll get yelled at for that)


This may be one of those diverting view point things that cannot be settled. I for one am extatic at SR's chargen, while I wouldn't mind maybe 20 more points to round things out a bit more. You're able to come out of chargen with a professional, as opposed to WoD or SR3 where you're more likely to end up pretty lopsided as you had to deal with point limitations based on assignment choices. Karma and advancement are important, but I have yet to see a concept that's not effective right out of the box?

Hell yeah on adjusting who gets what in a run.  I've been on too many where someone cuts out just after the meet and gets the same benefits to having been through it all.  Or someone else skips out just before the end and the lead flies.  Giving those people one or two and the rest a whole bunch would make more sense to me. 

That would work with a set karmic value to awards, a small percentage of a full karma.  That way you would see a larger amount for more work.  Eh.  Austin has gone off at length on a similiar thing, so I'll leave it at that.  I like the idea.

LvL 60 Hunter LFG... Lvl 60 Hunter.. LFG...

Why does no one ever pick me....

I think the probable solution to this will eventually be having a Karma2Cash and Cash2Karma system in place, and placing a cap on cash rewards similiar to the karma cap.  Through such a system the Karma oriented characters will have access to the resource they need more of, and the equipment oriented characters will be able to get better equipment faster, but there will (hopefully) be a constant cap on advancement from both angles.

The trick, of course, will be figuring out how much nuyen a point of karma is really worth.  Also, I would say that you should only be able to get 50 percent above the cap with conversion, so, say the current cap is 100, then a PC can buy 50 points of Karma at whatever cost in nuyen but no more until the cap is raised.