I'm glad you posted that second response Melkir, cuz frankly, that first one was kind of rude to Mark who was probably just trying to be helpful.

Peace.

Or fire, fire's good too.

I like +scan.  I can do without the stats.  And the way I've always told people about it, is that it's a first glance at the more important characteristics.  Height, noticable scars, horrible burning that covers the whole face, shaven head with tattoos, body type, etc.  Things that don't change.  If hair changes, either don't put hair color in your short-desc or take note that you need to change it.

Oh... I didn't mean it to be rude. It just hurt to think of all that pretty (and all that ugly code) that we can't just pull over without heavy restructural work.

Ah; I hadn't heard that radical change yet.? Sounds promising.

And, in defense of my +sheet design, I had over five years of other people's legacy systems to try to be compatible with.? Programmers know what I'm talking about.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I have no idea what happened under the hood after I left.  Those years -- and other coders -- could have been unkind to the poor thing for all I know. So... yeah! Down with +sheet!

Thanks, Kage.

And no big, Melkir.  Parts is parts.   

This defense is enough to excuse anything on SRS, and it's a good one. I think our existing +sheet code is great, with all the calculations with armor, the lookups and the telling your bank account information, your rental status, and if the jeans are ready to come out of the dryer. I'm afriad we won't be starting out that ambitious. But, it'll be designed to easily bolt on new components as time moves along.

I'm a little slow to post on this topic, but figure better late than never.  But, I'd say do without the stats.  Since Charisma is't just looks, it's wouldn't be that easy to tell someone has a CHAR of say...8 if it's based off the character's ability to con/smooth talk/etc.  If it would be possible to edit one's CHAR rating in +scan, it might be a bit more plausible, allowing a PC to assign a designated CHAR based on looks (which is what I'm assuming +scan is supposed to be) up to, but no more than the current CHAR stat.  This would be something that would allow that CHAR 8 elf that's based on social skills to down his actual 'cute' or 'hotness' to a 4 or 5, or what have you.  Just something to chew on, I dunno if it's a plausible idea or if it's just something that'd add more work to the growing pile.

Well, I think the theory behind charisma in +scan is:

1) Charisma should have an impact on RP

2) People can and do play characters more charismatic than themselves, ie they have no ability to pose "charismatically", at least at their characters' level; indeed, few if any muxers could really "show" why their elf has super charisma other than just posing literally how convincing they are, which is just bad posing.

The idea is that showing charisma with +scan would give you an idea of how to interact with someone.  I've seen charisma 2 people pose as being convincing, regular people, and charisma 6 people who couldn't convince a dog to wolf down dogfood with their poses (assuming the dog could read).  I like to know what someone's charisma is to decide my character's reaction.  If a charisma 2 person says "Buy me a drink?" I'm more likely to refuse than if a charisma 8 person said that.  People get all hung up on how they think knowing someone's charisma is intended to force you to act a certain way, but it's not.  It is a guide for you to determine what your character would do in a situation, it's a more or less hidden detail that you can use to better fit your actions into the game world.

Those who fear being "forced" to do things by high charisma, I'd like to remind you that not listing CHR in +scan won't prevent that.  If some asshat wants you do act outside of your character because of how big their epeen, i mean charisma, is, they'll just +prove it.

No charisma should not have an impact on RP. A person's description should initially "give you an idea of how to interact with someone." A charisma 8 elf described as being covered with trash and reeking of raw sewage should be a rather uncomfortable person to be around. But no the elfbians will flock to that PC. Where as an average charisma 3 human wearing a sheer silk and lace dress, who is scented with lilac and rose should be rather pleasant to be around. But no that player is ignored. After the initial look X go by a pose. There is something to be said comparing a few sentences to the imfamous Dr. *** **** sips his drink.

The idea of showing someone's charisma via a coded command is wholly OOC. All it does is give another person an idea as to what type of archtype a person is playing, being that the archtypes are linked to the attributes. All that showing charisma will do on NS is let someone say, "Oh high charisma must be either a shaman for drain, or a face with lots of social skills."

Why do you need to know "what someone's charisma is to decide my character's reaction."? Isn't a description or pose enough for you? Do you truely need a single numerical figure to decide how you RP? I'd like to think you're better than that.

Personally, I don't pay attention to +scan Charisma beyond the first impression that, 'Okay, that guy has a 1, I doubt he's gonna be socializing much'.  But just because a person has a high level of Charisma, which is both looks and social ability, doesn't mean every person will like them.  I, for one, have made a character who despises preppy or high class types, those that would typically have high charisma.  It doesn't matter that they attract everyone in the bar with how classy and cool they are, my character would despise them and not want to talk to them precisely because they are attracting everyone in the bar.

So, no, I do not play based on Charisma, I play based on how the character is posed.  And I still vote for no stats in the +scan.

+scan letting peeps know your stats? Even assensing doesn't let you know a stat aside from magic, force or essence. Why not throw every other stat in there, being we can base things like that on how they look alone? I think it's very house-rulish, and should be ditched.

Fact:? People like to ignore their sheet and roleplay however they want.? They like to have high body and strength and pose as being slender and small; they like to have low intuition and describe their eyes as "especially alert, darting around, finding all the dagners before they happenz!1"

Fact:? Most things like that are caught in chargen.? "You are an ork with body 8 strength 6?? You're big, change your desc."

Fact:? Chargen authorities have no power to enforce people RPing according to their charisma.? Uncharismatic characters often make convincing poses to get what they want, and charismatic players sometimes fail to accurately portray how convincing their character is and end up as if they hadn't paid 85 points for maxing charisma with an exceptional attribute in it?

So, how is this rectified?? By +scan showing charisma.? When +scan shows charisma, and someone makes a "convincing" sort of pose, I know how to react.? If they're uncharismatic, my character is probably going to take it with a grain of salt (provided I'm not already friends with the person or something).? If they're charismatic but they make a not so good pose that doesn't really convince me, the player, then I can say "Meh, I guess my character would go with it cuz of their cha 9."

The entire bellyache about charisma in +scan seems to be based on a series of misconceptios.? Showing charisma in +scan does not:

-Force your character to react in a particular way to a particular person based on their cha.

-Make you somehow vulnerable because people can see your important stats

-Give anyone an excuse to pkill anyone else

-Provide OOC information which can be used against you

It does:

-Give you a guideline so you can decide for yourself, informed by game stats (SR4 is a game, if you don't want a +sheet go play shangri-la!) how your character will act.

-Give people access to IC information that they could gain fairly easily anyway.

Now, granted, when someone walks into a room and hasn't posed yet, my knowing their CHR is OOC information.? But guess what? Using OOC information ICly is metagaming and against the rules!? If anyone does it, they get in trouble.? So let's not be paranoid about that.? Once they have entered the scene and begun to pose, all but the most imperceptive of people could make a roll to determine their general charisma, and most people could get a pretty close idea of how charismatic they seem.

Fact: Showing charisma in +scan helps my RP.? It helps NES' RP.? It probably does and will help the RP of many more who choose to utilize it to make the social aspect of the game more a part of the game and less a detached, boring, safe world where no dice are rolled and nobody even has a +sheet.

Fact:? It isn't gonna hurt anybody! The only people who have come forth with situations where it's harmful have presented anomalous situations which have never recurred and are not likely to.? So let's keep it!

Down with +sheets! Down with +sheets! Rabble rabble rabble!

To combat a few things Tear said...

Fact:  As a goalie in lacrosse i regularly was hit in unpadded area's by a hard rubber ball moving at 100mph and still was able to move quickly afterwards.  I could at the time and still can wrap my fingers around my wrist  and have my thumb overlap the entire nail of my middle finger.  I don't get sick all that often, and recover quickly 90% of the time.  I'm resistant to injurty of virtualy all sorts.  And you can still count my ribs if i suck my stomach in.  I am short too.  Having a high body/being resistant to damage does not make you big.  This is a common misconception.

Fact:  Most people use charisma to measure looks, not how convincing a person is, in rp.  As other have pointed out, "ooh charisma 8 elf must bone".

Fact:  A charisma 1 person can be extreamly convincing, but he's also probably insulted you three times, or made several other uncouth comments along the way.  'playing your charisma' is rather relative.  Your definition of how you think a charisma 1 person should act may not be the way someone else envisions it.


Atleast to me the main arguments I have against having charisma in +scan are...

-Its commonly missued

-I can not tell their force of personality just by glancing quickly across the room at its patrons.

-More times than not, it adds nothing to a scene or rp, or is ignored.

The arguments I've seen for charisma in there

-we need to know the other persons stats because they can't possibly know how to rp their character in line with his stats...not that we have a definitive definition of how every charisma 1, or any other level for that matter, acts or should act...


But regardless its been said no Charisma in +scan so woo

I'm afraid that your point is self-defeating.

If it's true that people tend to ignore their own Charisma when roleplaying, then it seems to follow that they will definitely ignore someone else's Charisma when roleplaying.