While cleaning out some old logs I came across a bit of wonderful bar rp. (editted for simplicity)

Inside the banshee

player pages you: "You should be rping with me. My charisma score is higher than his."

you page player: "What are you talking about?"

player pages you: "Check +scan my charisma is higher than his. You should ditch him and come to my table."

you page player: "That's lame."

and the other player continues to page throughout the entire scene until staff shows up and tells him that his reason to pkill the third player for having a lower charisma score is complete garbage. Fortunately there was a reasonable staffer on duty that night. With someone else there would have been a pkill over a stupid +scan.

My suggestion, either remove the charisma attribute from the +scan info, or ditch the +scan command all together. I think it would be so much nicer if people were to RP according to a written description rather than some nebulous coded OOC attribute. Afterall, charisma is more than physical appearance.

Comments?

I remember that scean myself. To many people use that as an ooc excuse to try and force people into actions they do not feel is correct for their charectors.

Agreed.

Uhm... I guess I'm showing my (young) age, since I've never heard of a problem with scan Charisma.  I've especially never heard of someone trying to force someone into something because they have a higher charisma. 

I just don't see it as an issue, but can see not having charisma listed.  However, I like +scan.  It gives you a quick overview when you walk into a room and something to look at in more detail if there's something odd about it. 

I'm all up for +scan.  But what does the inclusion of Charisma give you?  Why not include strengh and agility?  They make up more of someones looks than charisma does.  Theres no real reason for it.

Charisma isn't a person's looks. It's the force of his or her personality. The ability to attract and hold attention. With good RPers, this can be accomplished by their RP, and probably should be. But that's the reason it's traditionally been on +scans.

Doesn't matter to me whether it's on there, but I'd like to see more arguments before people come to a decision.

One problem with showing a PCs attribute via an OOC command is that people will respond to it OOCLY rather than ICLY. On SRS I've found that people who use the +scan ignore your UMD description. I could describe myself as being covered in trash and reeking like an open sewer, however, the +scan says charisma 6 and people treat me like a supermodel. Why? Because there are too many people who are too lazy to take the time to look and would rather base all of thier RP off the +scan. The argument used is that having to look at players is too spammy.

NS; a high charisma affects a few certain PC types, shamen who use it for drain, and social characters. Why is there a need to OOCLY tell the grid who is what kind of PC? If people are the elite roleplayers that they say they are, then they should be willing to take the time to read what someone else has written for thier benefit and entertainment. We're expected to read all the poses that are made, why not the descriptions as well?

Remove the Short-Description, it gets ignored by the player themself more often than not.  I have ran into a multitude of situations where a person has changed their looks around, or their dress for that day/week/month/year and their short description still does not display the difference.

HOWEVER.  I argue fully for Charisma to remain in place in the +scan.  It is a useful tool for those people who ARE good Roleplayers.  For instance, a good roleplayer who has a charisma 1 may actually be very inviting to RP with and get along with, ICly.  Why?  Cause they respond well, their character is unique, etc etc.  But, when they tell me to jump, I shouldn't be asking "How High?"  I should be laughing at them cause its gotta be a joke, right?  Than the other situation that used to crop up a lot, a troll who wants to be very intimidating poses themself very intimidatingly into the bar.  However, Intimidation has two sources, 1) Charisma.  2) A skill roll from the Intimidation skill.  Seeing as its just a pose, a thematic thing, the person ought not be forced to roll (necessarily) but instead should still be accountable for their character's charisma.  After all, if you want to make someone who is FRIGHTENINGLY ugly, system wise it makes more sense to have a HIGH charisma, than a low one.  Instead, you just fall in the realm of fugly people that others just simply ignore cause although you are ugly, you aren't 'especially' ugly in any worthwhile regard.  "*Yawn* Just another troll bulging with muscles and stinks of the sewers... *yawn*"

To respond to the situations posted above, however, I'd say this.  First off, if a person wants you to RP with them instead of someone else because of their Charisma, than they better A) Start rolling dice, and B) Pose worthwhile enough that they don't garner modifiers against them.   A dork is a dork even if they have a savvy character, and the wrong words can be a detraction in social situations like the wrong strategy in combat.  The good roleplayer might make it cute, but only if their dice say they can.  Social skills CAN and SHOULD be useable to alter a scene as much as any combat skill CAN and SHOULD be useable.  If you don't feel up to the RP of playing with this ridiculously stupid character who beyond all doubt still managed to roll so well that you'd still wanna socialize with them ICly.  Than, guess what, tell them that they aren't interesting OOCly, enough for you to RP with them and if you wanna go further HELP THEM OUT.  However, if they want to say that ICly you'll have flirted with them, and thought them great than so be it, just FTB the scene now cause you don't feel like RPing with them.  And zip off to another scene, somewhere ELSE!

A good player is not the kind of person who'd require you to RP with them anyways.  But sometimes we have to remind ourselves that a good Roleplayer does not make for high charismas in-game... even though they seem tons of fun to play with OOCly.  With the charisma stat shown in full force we can decide better how our character will come up to you.  If you are an unassuming person or a super shy/mean/rude/etc sort, we can approach you in all sorts of different ways.  But without the Charisma shown we don't know exactly HOW you are unassuming/shy/mean/rude/etc.  Instead we are forced respond to you by trusting our faulty perception of your character's charisma based upon our idea of how much fun it will be to RP with you OOCly.  And that, even the best of RPers will do.  Its so easy to be a charisma 1 character on a MU* cause no one cares, and that Charisma 1 character socializes with the best of the PCs, but for some reason all the NPCs don't regard them at all.  Its a paradox!  No, its just people being unconcerned with Charisma, which we can't deal with unless its shown to us.

So, in short.  Short-descriptions GONE, Charisma and +scan STAYS!  That's my vote.  Anybody who wants to try and force my character to do anything is free to try with Dice AND Roleplay.  Inclusive of Shooting, Flirting, Intimidating, Negotiating, Ripping off, or Lying to me.  We are not a care bear MU*, we are a fully PVP capable, non-consent place.  You can't force someone to RP their death with you, but you can kill them.  You can't force someone to TS with you, but you can still sex-them-up.  And you assuredly can't force someone to WANT to give you a better deal on a gun they are selling, but their character might do it anyways with a smile on their face thanks to some dice.  Welcome to the world of non-consent folks.  If we want it, we gotta go all the way!

I vote no attributes, including sex and race on the +scan. In fact I vote no +scan.

No, not even a short desc.

Just put some time into SUCCINCT, quality umd descriptions and change them as needed.

This has the added advantage of allowing people in disguise to remain in disguise without the OOC info of +scan giving things away, which is totally frustrating when you invest in Disguise skill.

Less is more (flexible) in this case for sure.

NES's opinion that we are obliged to alter our RP for high charisma and good rolls honestly makes me squick just a little. ?The thought that my character, that little bit of free will in the virtual mayhem, would be made to act counter to what I wanted him to, or what I felt he would, is discomforting at best. ?But I thought hard on it and noticed something.

She's absolutely right.

I pull a gun, I point it at a PC, I pull the trigger. ?I have a high agility, and a strong pistols skill. ?I roll a pile of dice, and get numerous hits. ?The player's resist rolls fail miserably.
At his point, I've 'obliged' him to alter his rp. ?No matter what he or she had in mind for how they'd like the turnout to go, I've invoked the rules in a fair manner, and we both are bound by the results.

Given that, I don't really have a whole lot of traction to fight the idea that the same concept doesn't apply for social skills. ?A hot momma who knows her way around a man's libido could most likely pull my little willpower 3 boy around by the nose, even if I the player had intended him to keep his cool and stay distant through the encounter. ?

Therefore, having the charisma visible still seems like a good idea, if used in the proper manner. ?Personally I think high charisma and skills should be able to set a character's disposition toward them, affect the overall mood and tone, but perhaps not make a drooling zombie of any but the more weak willed of metahumans. ?It's when charisma is swung around like a club that I take exception. ?The whole 'I'm totally awesome, it doesn't matter what I pose, you gotta think I'm the poo' bit is stretching the concept a bit far, especially when it's made an excuse for lazy RP. ?So some education on the care and feeding of Charisma is probably in order for the incoming player who hasn't grasped the nuances yet.

On the other hand, I like the shortdesc. ?I do use it, frequently, and though I wish people would update them more often it's a nice quick reminder of who's who and what I'm seeing. ?I read full descs, every time, but the summary definitely has its uses.

I like the +scan a lot. For me, it represents the information that your PC should reasonably get from a quick glance. It's also important because it condenses that information in a concise, non-spammy package -- essential for when you're joining a room with a lot of posing / chatter going on. How much do you actually comprehend after speed-reading through 8 or so half-screens of desc? So yes, I hope the shortdesc stays.

I'm neutral about charisma showing up on the +scan, because I'm not sure if something like charisma can be gleaned by the quick IC glance that +scan represents. But if it is included, how about displaying just a range? (1-2, 3-4, 5-6 or 1, 2-4, 5+ or however inexact people want to make it)

This next suggestion is probably going to raise a lot of opposition, but what about including unmodified strength and/or body in the +scan, as a range like 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 and so on? It fits the IC action that +scan represents, since one should reasonably get a general idea of another's strength and body just be glancing at his/her physique. Of course, this shouldn't include modifications due to cyberware or magic.

But shouldn't the physique described in the full desc tell you all you should ICly know about someone's strength and body? It should, but it doesn't always work out that way. I once had an arm-wrestling match with a PC desced as a petite Japanese girl who turned out to have the strength of a wrestler. Having a general idea (i.e., a range) of unmodified strength/body would be a good way to cross-reference what's in the desc.

I need visuals, anyone care to mock up what a +scan should, or shouldn't look like. Just draw it out in the message.

I can't agree with you there NES and I never will.

I have rarely seen anyone use charisma that way.  And the whole thought of just tossing around dice for charisma type things almost makes me sick to my stomach.  For example...you've been rping being a arrogant ass to me all night, my character at this point virtauly hates you,  You've insulted and derided him/her and then you've decided to roll your charisma and superior ettiqute to make me pay your bar tab.  You get lucky and roll a ton of hits.  Personaly I wouldn't even bother rolling and ignore you/act the way my character would act and tell you to go stuff yourself.  I've seen it done before with the mentality of just tossing down gobs of dice to make things go your way.

Its not that I don't trust players, well yes it is.  I've seen that type of thing done far too many times.  This is why in normal table top games you have a GM decide when you actualy roll that type of thing.  You don't just do it on a whim because you think you should.  So i think that mentality is aberant.  Afterall...what GM worth his dice would allow a player to plop down in the meet just randomly roll his dice to 'tell the J to just hand over the money and shoot himself in the head'.

So no I don't think charisma belongs in the +scan.  If Charisma is only personality based now...how do i pick up their personality in a quick glance about the room?

Which brings me to short desc's.  To me they shouldn't really have your cloths in it, it should be generaly what you look like (5'10" female elf with red hair), and how you carry yourself usualy perhapse (stands tall confident looking, carries herself with a air of nobility).

So to me +scan would look  something like this
---------------------------------------------------------------
<name>   <apparent sex>  <apparent race>

<shortdesc>

<name>  <apparent sex>  <apparent race>

<shortdesc>
----------------------------------------------------------------

I say apparent sex and race, as you could have cross dressers, or completely androgenouse people.  And you also have elf posers, human posers...ect orc posers...

What if we built your short-desc automagically from input during the CG/BG process? The fruther idea being that were you to modify your major characteristics that staff would be involved in some way.

That would make sense to me for the most part, though being able to change your haircolor at will would be nice, as would changing your apparent sex (disguises and such).  However apparent race might just be set at cg...but then again human in a disguise to look like a elf...so