I know our staff would like to stick directly with Canon.? However, here's a house rule I came across, worth considering.

On Pg 73 of SR4, it reads: "(During Character Creation)...Players may not spend more than half their total BP on Physical and Mental attributes."

I would propose changing this to read: "(During Character Creation)...Players may not spend more than half their total BP on Physical, Mental, and Magical Attributes."

It's a pretty simple, non-intrusive fix that nips the whole Uber-Mage right in the bud, straight from the get-go.? And since Uber-Mages have always been the concern behind Seattle's Magic Character's by Appointment Only policy, this should pave the way for them to play unrestricted, without reservation.

Obviously, with time, our local Mages will be able to grow into the uberness that comes with Magic, but not without Mundanes getting a bit of a (fair) headstart.

Thoughts?

-CM

This is completely unnecessary a fix IMHO. They are already losing a number of points just on buying up magic from 1 to whatever they want it at. These points could be used for lifestyle, foci, and most importantly -Skills-. Since it's the same pool that everyone is using, and since magic is NOWHERE NEAR as nasty as it was in the old system, it doesn't really need to be touched. A Street Sam going full auto on someone hits someone with effectively a  force +9 spell. The system is much more balanced.

Leave it as it is.

I'm going to skip the argument and go straight to the smacking.  Bad idea! XO

Indeed.

Afterall to 'max out' a cybersammie can dump 200 BP into attribs. Then another 50BP into cash. Which while it is only 250k That 250k goes just as far as the 1M does in SR3 due to the greatly lowered costs of both ware and gear.

So instead your now turning around (with magic chars) and dumping the BP into magic points instead of cash. Not to mention you also wind up spending even more BP just to become a magic user in the first place (varried cost based on the type).  And then even more BP for gear.

So yeah. I'm against that idea too.

We're firmly anti-houserule. :-)

Fair enough.? However, I thought I'd throw that out there as the BP restriction on attributes is not to 'Ensure rounded out characters', per claims in the book, but because the mechanics of the system heavily favor attributes over skills.? Essentially, a single point of agility is as good as a single point in every agility related skill.? Therefore, by capping BPs spent on attributes, it forces players to take skills, rather than ignore them outright.

The effect, then, with Magic Attributes being factored into the BP cost would be awakened character's that maintain their broad skillbase, without capitalizing on the FreeBeeNoDuh dice that attributes generate, forcing well rounded characters, rather than a trend of very specialized mages able to cut out drawbacks by just pumping their attributes.

And I brought it up as a firm advocate in the limitation of Magic Vs. Mundane through fundamental changes, rather than enforced quotas.? Perhaps if my fear of the revival of the 'Turn to Goo' is unfounded, then it will be an unnecessary solution to a non-existant problem.

-CM

From what I've seen magic users -STILL- need to maintain a broad skillbase. Afterall while attribs add to skills. They dont really work well to outright replace them unless your desperate. Afterall the typical roll is attribute + Skill. And penalties subtract dice from that total. So even if you've dumped a 6 into that attrib it wont go far without a skill adding some dice on. And I'm pretty sure there's some penalty for defaulting to an attribute and not having the skill at all still.

Negative, Ghostrider.? The pattern is full.

Having a Six in an attribute, and a 1 in a skill, is as good as being averagely skilled, and averagely, uh... attributed.? To my understand, the only time 'defaulting' penalties come into play is when there is no skill value at all to use in the first place.? Therefore, maxing out attributes is the most cost effective, bang-for-your buck, and there should be no reason, under any circumstances whatsoever, that any self-respecting munchkin should not max out their BPs spent on Attributes.

And not only is it more effective to max attributes, and minimize on skills in chargen, but it also effectively reduces the amount of karma you need to reach your dice cap for any given roll.

So yes, we all would like a broad skill base.? But no, it isn't nearly as essential as it was in our previous, skillbased system as it is in the current, shared-based system.

-CM

You're forgetting one simple fact. 200 bp in attributes is CRAP. Yep I said a nasty four letter word. 200 BP cannot make the 'ubah broken 1337' character at all. 200 BP and you still have several 3's a couple 2's, and -maybe- one six, if you are lucky and -trying- to min-max a little to get a high agility for example.

Take a look around for the character idea's post, some people (myself included) put up some idea's for characters they'd want to run, including sheets. Tear's character for example, had 1's in -all physical stats- in order to try to be a 'pretty snarking good' mage. It doesn't need to be tweaked, at all.

Actually... in the new system skills -are- a little less important than they were, but they are still important. After all, a 0 in a skill now means you have no training -but- you aren't completely stupid. A 0 means you know no more or less than the 'average' joe. I'd start giving serious thresholds at defaulting. Anyone can default but they typically have less a die pool than a skilled individual unless they take the inept flaw or whichever one it is that gives them a - instead of a 0 in a skill which means they have no idea about said skill at all.

A character with a 1 in a skill and a 5 logic trying to disarm that bomb may not have as much practical knowledge, and depending on the complexity of the bomb might have a higher threshold I'll agree, but they have enough grey matter power to make reasonable leaps in logic to cover their lack of intense training.

This is countered by the fact that skills, are -much- cheaper than attributes. So you need more training in an area where someone else might need less to be equally skilled. That's how that works, natural aptitude is the attribute, training is the skill itself.

However, CM's reasoning is mostly flawed because 200 bp isn't much really, all characters will have definate strengths and weaknesses and I believe if you tried to be decent in everything you'd end up with a bunch of attributes at 3, and maybe 1 or 2 at 4. It's not the same ballpark anymore as old SR, mages and mundanes are pretty well balanced.

After all, a mage can initiate, and a samurai can get a laser with a serious DV and AP value that uses 1/2 of your impact armor to resist... ouch.

Let alone SMG's that can go full auto, like the Ingram (I think not looking at the page) or various assault rifles. Full auto is a complex action, just like throwing a spell, can hit multiple people, and pumps the damage up so high even Trolls go 'Oh shit'.

I don't think attributes are king over skills.? Yes, they are much more widely useful thank skills because they apply to a broad category of actions.? However, their cost is prohibitive.? For the cost of getting an attribute from 5 to 6 (25 BP) you can take a skill at five.? Would I rather have 5 agi and 5 automatics instead of 6 agi and 0 automatics? Hell yes.

As for magicky peepuls, I've played with genning a mage quite extensively, and I've determined you have two options when you start as a mage.? You can suck or you can suck.? It's just a choice of where you suck; you can gimp attributes (almost always gonna be physical and edge) and be good at magic and have enough resources to have foci, or you can gimp your magic and be well rounded and skilled and have some points left over for resources maybe.? Being a weak mage who is not totally lopsided has its liabilities, and being an uber mage who is laugable in physical combat does as well.? Regardless, whatever you get in SR4 you have to pay for it, and the prices are, once you test out the system, pretty damn fair.

Ouch, Runefire. ?You're squashing me. ?I can't breathe down here...

But let me address you points as best I'm able.


Yes. ?You're very astute, and absolutely correct, Mr. Runefire. ?That's why, from the very beginning of this thread I said: "It's a pretty simple, non-intrusive fix that nips the whole Uber-Mage right in the bud, straight from the get-go." ?As far as logical reason behind it, well, to say the least I'm fairly skeptical of how the framer's of this gaming system handle magic. ?Afterall, they don't have (In my humble opinion) the best track record for maintaining balance between the two (Mundane and Awakened) types. ?Therefore, my 'logicial reason' behind it would be to: Address what I (In my humble opinion) believe to be an improvement on what has been implemented (and historically been poorly handled) by the game designers.

Next.


Yes, well, I'm operating under the assumption that 'All dice are created equal', be those dice from Attributes, Skills, Augmentation, or Situational Modifiers - At the end of the day, it still comes down to X dice vs. Y Threshold. ?Introducing your interpretation of skill levels, and thresholds would certainly change the equation, but as SR4 is currently written, understand that what you suggest is a interpretation, and not canon.


Fair enough. ?I respect that you are opionated on the subject, and am glad that staff has provided us a venue to discuss our opinions, however much I may disagree with yours, at this time. ?None the less, while you are presenting your opinion, understand that at points you are operating under assumption, which is not to say that I am not as well in some cases, but that there is certainly room for interpretation inside the boundaries of the game.

Lastly, Green-Elf: No, I agree with you, 200BP cannot make an Uber-l337-SuperSaiyan(sp?). ?And as the system currently stands, it allows for the most part for very flexible design, without too much room for abuse. ?However, the majority of abuse to the system will come from awakened characters; which is how it's been, how it is, and how it will always be. ?And while I definitely agree that Full-Auto is an excellent substitute for a Powerball, I would like to point out that everyone can use full-auto, whereas a Powerball is inheriently found on only one side of the fence.

But even before getting bogged down in a standstill Powerball vs. Full Auto debate, let me make it clear that it is not the direct damage dealing abilities of a magician that concern nearly as much as the raw utility they exhibit. ?Controlling an Individuals Actions, Summoning Spirits, or day I say, Turning someone into Goo (Which oddly doesn't alter the state of their Cyberware, and makes it ripe for the plucking), are much more threatening. ?And leave much more room for abuse.  In fact, while I'd love to double check, I think most Mages worth their salt will come out with roughly twice (or more) dice to roll than their targets when utilitizing these 'utility' spells.

Is the system pretty effective at what it does, presently? ?Sure. ?I'm definitely a fan. ?Is there some serious room for abuse? ?Absolutely. ?Particularly after you add a couple foci into the mix. ?I suppose we should all be used to that notion by now, but you can't blame me for trying to address it before we all get used to it (again).

-CM

Yeah and what about adepts? Then they suddenly get the shaft cause they cant match up with the cybermonster down the street. For the most part all they wind up with is a 'natural' version of cyberware at a much higher BP cost in the SR4 system. So yeah theywont set off sensors. But their spending 70BP to get what a cybersam can get for 50.

Heh.  Tough love.  I'll garner them some sympathy when the Essence and Magic attribute are anywhere near comparable.

-CM

Okay to combat your turn to goo fear: Manipulation spells that directly alter/change a target against their will require casting at a force equal to their body to have any effect at all. So you don't even know if you're going to affect them in the first place without overcasting *ouch*, you also need to score more successes on your test than they get on a body test... which could be quite difficult considering that most 'beefy' type runners (Dwarves, orks, and trolls) have a pretty high body attribute. ?Then you have the fact that even if you get enough successes... well a starting mage would be almost guarantee'd to have to overcast, win the die roll, and hope the opponent doesn't have any counterspelling dice to add to their roll...

Not exactly the easiest thing in the world to do.

Then the drain, I wouldn't want to try and eat a Force 9 turn to go as a starting mage to make sure I affect that -possible- non-altered ork... (Hey he might have suprathyroid, or who knows what else) Can we say 7 physical drain? Yowsers.

All in all, it's a lot more balanced than it used to be, and you also have to sustain that spell to keep them turned, which could be even more problems because you're probably already sustaining an armor spell, or some other spell just to survive the relatively low initiative mages get, and if they are sustaining an increased init spell... well...

Oh and there is that little rule, that you can only get as many successes on a spell as per the force. So a Force 4 spell can only get 4 successes total even if you rolled 12. Makes it a little easier to fight off some things. Magic is not as 'nasty' as it used to be, and is much more balanced than before.