Originally when +karma2cash was pinoneered, I heard a very convincing argument on a very dead horse: Awakened vs. Samurai.

Sharing the dynamics behind it's implimentation with some of you newer players, without boring some of you old hands, the argument behind it went something along these lines:

1) Relatively speaking, Mundanes rely less on Karma than Awakened PCs do, and more on cash.
2) However, due to +noms, Logs, and Plots, Karma is more easily aquired than Cash is.
3) Therefore, it is easier to achieve progress as an awakened character, in a MUSH environment, due to the abundance of Karma-relative-to-Cash, than it is as a Mundane.

This is the highly condensed version.? I believe you may need to excellent text editor, a very, very large buffer, and quite a bit of patience to get the whole thing.

But fine.? I believe that was, at one time, a fairly accurate assessment of the situation.? That said, when it was brought into play, I thought that there may be some merit to it.? It provided a means for our mundane characters to actually leave the game with more cyberware than they entered with, at the cost of something they didn't have as much (As much.? Do not read as: None) use for, as their awakened counterparts.? However, in the spirit of our new 'Stick to Canon' mentality, I would like to adamantly oppose any sort of +karma2cash system.

Why?? Well, above and beyond there being no mention in the 'canon' core rules of karma being exchanged for cash?? Because after browsing through the SR4 gear, and cyberware guides, the game designers have finally given us something that we've been collectively @whining about for ages.? I believe the term is 'grit', though I do recall several pages of rants some time back about the setting not being 'Dark' enough.? 'Dark' being rather vague term, let me redefine the tool that our beloved game designers have dropped in our laps as 'The Essence of More Affordable Progress, and More Practical Cyberpunk'.? Or, if you dont' like cool catch phrases, you could just note that the gear is cheaper.

The change is drastic.? And yet, to contrast that, lifestyle costs have not changed drastically at all - Infact, now as a direct result, a Street Samurai can realistically piecemeal himself into a cyborg without relying on the type of paycheck that would make some of our modern day CEO's turn green with envy.? People don't have to live like James Bond, or have an unjustifiable bank account and an unhealthy appetite for misery to be effective samurai.? We can be good little punks, and still find ways to get our cookies.

So how does this relate to +karma2cash?? Simple.? It wasn an intrusive measure into the system that addressed a concern that no longer applies.? As a mundane, I can pay my rent, stash a little cash, live like a gutterpunk, and still manage to find some new implants from time to time.? We don't need the crutch that +karma2cash provided any longer, and it's elimination will help simplify the mechanics of the game into the more 'canon' feel that we're approaching.

-CM

As a matter of what seems to be mostly procedure at this point, I would have to assert that karma2cash should be mantained, in my humble opinion, because some of us don't do so many runs. Some characters or player's might not be in the practice of the highly lucrative career of shadowrunning.

Let me insert the opposing argument here. Shadowrunning is the name of the game. If you don't want to shadowrun, tough luck.

Rebuttal: Ahh, but is not hooding the name of the game, at some points? Arn't novels written about people in 'legal' professions? Arn't lengthy diatribes in books based on the politics of world governments, as well as corporations?

Yes. But opposing argument still stands, and folks want a gritty world. Can't argue much with the powers-that-be. But anyhow, my main argument is hooding, or playing a white knight or other such determined idealist.

Opposing argument: Shadowrun is an amoral world. White Knights really don't belong. If you want to play one, its gritty, so tough luck.

Rebuttal: But-

Opposing argument: Nope, thats the way it is.

Rebuttal: *eyes*

Anyway, there are plenty ways not to make money, and yet still fit in the genre. Hooding, semi-legit characters (because lets face it, you play the game, your gonna deal with a Shadowrunner sooner or later), terrorists, street shamans, Biotechs, Enforcer's, etc. While they might be involved in Staff scenes, RP, and plots that would garner them karma, they might not receive the nuyen necessary to mantain a lifestyle or purchase odds and ends that they might otherwise gain 'off-screen'. This, as well as the sometimes absense of runs that can happen in the world of a MUSH seem to make karma2cash a necessity.

While it might have been pioneered for a different reason, it now has a different purpose.

Well "I need money" isn't a great argument for +karma2cash Rheiv 

There are some very good ways to get money other than shadowrunning, however, and those involve PC-to-PC transactions.  If you don't anticipate going on many runs, then you might want to take some skills that are useful off-camera.  Be able to get people gear, drugs, information, cusomtize their commlinks, fix their vehicles...  All these can make you into a rich, powerful, and influential person, especially if you get your foot in the door on the beta.  Plus, with +nomtocash, money (at least on the small scale) isn't going to be a huge worry just because you don't go on many plots.

Another thing I'd hope to see would be some sort of small-business code.  If there isn't any, then public spaces are generally meaningless.  It doesn't make any sense that a club owner would have to shadowrun to pay his club's rent...  But it would also be dumb if public spaces paid their own rent and anyone could own a biz for no cost.  Since the spaces aren't going to exist for some time, though, I think that this question can be effectively tabled.

Well, I answer the question without considering nom2cash because we don't know if thats gonna be implimented. Also, I know for a fact that just because you have skills that player's can use doesn't mean they'll pay you for it. After all, you can't pay for a low lifestyle, especially with a low PB, when people don't want to pay a middleman who's still gonna just have to go to a staffer anyway.

I go into the problem of at some point's, slow queues and a small playerbase that may not be conducsive to making money. This also doesn't mention the hooders of the lot. Again, people who might make money off screen, but generally make there way helping folks that can't play. Now, I'm not asking for free middle lifestyles and things like that. But it comes down to the point where I want to RP a cool character concept that might fit, but I can't because it doesn't make any IC cash. Stuff like that.

Anywho, my two cents on that picture. We should have /some/ manner or way of earning some nuyen without a run.

If you guys have a coder who can do this in your back pocket, send him/her along. If you don't, this isn't exactly one of our priorites, so ka?

That is more then a viable and totally okay reason for not having something. (Not Sarcasm. I really mean it)

I think it'll be much easier once we have an attribute that stores this 'karma' value everyone keeps talking about.

I'm sure if there are widespread money troubles in the beta, some sort of solution will be applied, even if it's just a temporary one.  But we can't solve the problem before it occurs 

Like raining nuyen in the middle of the streets!  That'd be a great time for one and all.  Samurai pick up cyber, 50% off, clearance everything, it must ALL SALE.  Why?  Cause I'm Crraaaaaaazzzzzy everything is on Clearance!  How about a brand new set of 2070 wires 3?  Old price lots of money, new price, absolutely free!!!  Some people ask how we make nuyen?  I tell them, volume volume volume!

You know that almost tempts me to make a street doc who does that lol...

Despite Shadowrun: London having an unfortunate focus on Orgs, rather than Shadowrunners, they managed to peg one thing right on the head: Vocations.? Of course, most income -should- come from shadowruns, if you want to call yourself a shadowrunner, but... If you're looking for a system that allows for Shadowrunners to earn nuyen without a run, look no farther.

Vocations included, but were not limited to: Cop, Bartender (legal), Wage Slave, Government Agent, Bartender (Shady), Rocker, ShadowDoc, Shadowmechanic, Bouncer, Bodyguard, Cyberwhore, Software Pirate, Ganger, Pimp, Drug Dealer, Snitch, Etc.

Not only was it a great way to pay the rent, but it gave you a bit more focus to your daily routine.

Talk about value.

-CM

Well now, I saw some playing on SR: London (didn't play there myself), and the org system seemed to add a little to the game. At least you'
d have unexpected army raids of locations.

But the vocations, complete with +vocnoms is kinda cool. Its a way to make money, get certain benefits, sometimes special benefits (Army members got a free Low Lifestyle at the barracks, I think. Like, cop characters got like, a skill or competency bonus... I don't remember. Again, I didn't play there), and can add plenty of atmosphere to the world because you have folks RPing out their occupation.

Exactly.

Nothing better than giving all those would-be, Bar-RP'ing, Alcoholic, Chain-smoking Shadowrunners something to RP, eh?  And all without having to tug on a staff-skirt.

-CM

I think this is where Noor comes along and says...

Entirely possible.  But it's definitely something to consider for the future, right?

-CM