Pg. 206, you are right, says that there are businesses that are hardwired to the local Matrix infrastructure.  But again, The Matrix, is composed of wireless devices communicating together in a mesh network.  So yeah, there are definitely still businesses that have wires travelling about their buildings, but they hit a wireless router or what they call a terminal.  Otherwise, think about it, why would someone in a dead zone be unable to access the Matrix if the wired Matrix was still around?  I'm not refuting wires, just that its not how the matrix is anymore.  Like now, we plink through tons of nodes to get to a server which runs and and collects a lot of data, limiting our bandwidth and sometimes our access to places.  That's not the case anymore by 2070.  If I want to read your profile and we're in the same room, I just download it from you wirelessly.  I don't have to connect through a server providing me service, its direct.  They don't negotiate our IPs, our Commlinks do.  Etc.

But more references to read about how everything for The Matrix is wireless, read all from pg. 38 to 39 at the end where it talks about Big Brother Is Watching.  All throughout this text it not only mentions but states specifically that all our commlinks ARE the networks that exist now, of us are connected to everybody all the time.  That's why we can be tracked meatside as well as matrixside.  Paranoid yet? (funny quote)

And again under Matrix Security it talks about how some business choose to isolate themselves with an internal wired network.  That's fine, but they have, admittedly in this section, no connection to the Matrix without having 'timed secure gateways' which link them for only moments.  That's still wireless during those times.

If you could provide me with a page and some references otherwise I'd like to know.  I mean, I read lots of it and carefully, so I see all these mentions in text about the only way to access The Matrix, is through wireless connections and than wired interactions with the Matrix pops up here.  And I'm confused.  So, please, de-confuse me with pages so I can read them. 

Now as for System Failure the book, I dunno what's going on in there.  I don't have that book.  So there might be some thematic elements in there about a wired Matrix, but for the general consumer and for The Matrix connections we'll likely be dealing with...  its all wireless.  I've only got the base book though, so again, if there's cool text in there describing otherwise please post/send as a message.  I'm gonna be a hacker (at least in part) so I wanna know all there is about the crazy Wireless World of 2070, even the wired parts as unfashionably 2060s they may be.

Thanks.

Hmm, yeah. Hardwired base stations, telecommunications grid, matrix backbone... It's all right there.  Just as plain and literal as the part which says that the matrix is a wireless mesh network.

I guess they didn't learn their lesson from the magical dissonance virus that wiped out all computers? 

I think I see where you're getting confused.  SR4 has pretty much totally abstracted the matrix infrastructure; it's not really reflected in the rules any more.  However, the problem with this is that we're given absolutely no hints as to how the hell all this works beyond the most local scale.  We're told 'it just happens' and are left to sort it out.  You assume that this just means that the p2p portion of the network extends outward indefinitely.  But it can't.

Let's say I'm in the Barrens and I want to log into my favorite bar in Downtown.  We'll call this Bar A, and I'm Node B.  I send out a signal saying "Hey, I want to log in to Bar A."  For simplicity, we'll assume there's only one other node in the area besides ourselves, Node C.  Node B gets this message and says "That's nice.  Let me see if I can find it for ya."  It turns around and talks to Node D, which Node A can't see.  If Node C doesn't know about Bar A, it'll keep on passing the message around, but let's say Node D knows the location of Bar A and puts you in touch.  Now you have a situation that looks like this:

Bar A <-> Node D <-> Node C <-> Node B

Data is flowing smoothly back and forth between all four of the nodes and everyone is happy.  Now, once again to simplify, we will assume the airwaves are only sufficient to carry one data channel at a time.  Obviously this isn't the case but the airwaves are finite, and nothing can change that, just expand the amount of the spectrum we use.  Eventually, this case will come up.

Let us say that Node C's owner wants to join you in the Bar A.  He can't do it.  Why not?  He's busy carrying your signal.    What has to happen is each of you will only use half the available bandwidth on the one channel you have been allocated.  If Node D decides he wants to join in too, one third of the bandwidth has to be allocated to each, even though all of the Nodes want to eavesdrop on the same outgoing data from Bar A.  This is because Bar A cannot have any mechanism to realize all three of the Nodes are sharing a signal, lest one of the guys in the middle moves out of range and drops Node B from the connection.  It just has to duplicate the same environment three times and feed it into Node D, which passes the appropriate data along and processes the rest.

Again, this is heavily simplified, but it illustrates the problem with a totally ad-hoc, serverless network (which is what you claim SR4 proposes.)  Multiply the above examples to the point where the Matrix can function as described, and all the signals would eventually amount to nothing more than enough heavy radio static to really confuse any aliens who might or might not be monitoring the planet.  Some of the signals, therefore, must be isolated from each other in some way.  Fiberoptic wires (which aren't subject to electromagnetic interference) are a good way to do this.  So would establishing 'servers' that essentially use a reserved portion of the bandwidth to communicate over larger distances by bouncing off of satelites, thereby massively reducing the number of 'hops' necessary to get from, say, Seattle to Sydney.  There are enough subtle hints in both SR4 and System Failure to conclude that this is how the underlying structure actually functions.

How, then, do we reconcile this with the game mechanics?  Quite simply, we note that SR3's method of challenging a decker for proper credentials at every single step is just plain silly.  To the average citizen, the Matrix has always worked just about like it does now.  Sure the devices are smaller than a cell phone today, and they don't need to be plugged in anymore, but most users won't even notice the difference beyond that.  Instead, post-Crash the people designing the new systems to replace it note that most of the time even an illegal hacker doesn't usually want to cause trouble and with wireless it has become a lot harder to specifically track him down.  Therefore, instead of trying to challenge a guy for 'just passing through' they focus on monitoring people who are actually on their systems doing things.  If all you do is log in long enough to figure out where you're going next, you're cool, even on the new RTG whose main job is still just shunting traffic between major portions of its' own metroplex, even if it's now doing significantly less of that.

As for the wireless mesh, it should be noted that in a given area this probably IS how it functions, as long as you stay local.  So long as everyone maintains a link to the central server for the area, there's no particular reason they can't do their own thing with each other.  The 'Mesh' is the lowest layer, and if you want to go farther you go through a centralized structure to save time.  Note that if the centralized structure is taken out somehow the whole still functions, it just doesn't do nearly as well.

The literature tends to be a bit contradictory at times. But here's how I interpret it (the contradiction, that is): There's the wireless mesh. Nodes interact directly with one another. Behind that, for more important and longer-distance communications, there's the wired infrastructure, which is connected of course to wireless routers on each end. LI's right in that the wireless net can't go on forever. So, if you need to chat with somebody in Yakutsk, you send your request on through the local wireless mesh, and eventually it hits one of the major hubs. That hub is connected to a big thick fiberoptic cable under the Bering Sea, and on the other end, another wireless router puts it onto the local net there, and from there it reaches your contact. Similar principles probably operate on a smaller regional scale, probably even across the metroplex. Make sense? Cause it does to me, and it seems to reconcile the commentary in the book...

...and it's basically what I've been trying to say all day.  I should have just let you do that.

Ummm I hate to do this, and it may sound like a flame, but I really don't mean it to be: It's a game.

That means it works, exactly like they say it works. They have technology well beyond ours, they have full virtual reality through your cellphone basically. And it's always on, all the time, anyone can do it with a set of trodes or a datajack. Hmmm we don't have those yet do we? Sure we might right now be able to only handle one wireless connection at a time, I don't buy it for some 64 years in a future that was already more advanced in 2006 than we are right now.

Mostly, I don't see the real reason for this whole bickering point. What is there to fight about? What is there to argue about? The matrix is wireless now, what's the big deal?

System crash is a plot book that details Deus thrashing the stock exchange and crashing the Wired Matrix. It explains how we went from wired to Wireless. Do I expect my game designers to invent some totally futuristic technology that would work IRL? No, I don't because they are game designers and not scientists that can invent stuff that is clearly well beyond our means. They give us some decent stuff to work with, they tell us how the Matrix is now a Wireless mesh and how there is no limit to the amount of pings you can get, it's called Spam Zones basically. Sure you can only subscribe so many dedicated devices but those are in constant link. The way I see it is this made up new tech that consists of some really ultra cool transmission system that effectively makes wireless connectivity unlimited. As for how they bounce signals all over the world through this mesh? Strategically placed satellite uplinks. Poing. No need fore Wired connectivity if every satellite uplink is essentially a terminal, whee.

How's it do this? Mega fast signal packets, strong signals (Commlinks can have ranges of up to what, 40 km pretty cheaply?) and they can store so much data that it's crazy. The rule is now, youare assumed to have enough memory, and you're assumed to download it -hella fast-. Well... I dunno about you, but arguing about completely fictional technology in a completely fictional setting just makes no sense...

While we're at it lets argue as to why on Star Trek they never kept pattern copies of all their higher uppity ups on some planet with mega high energy capacity that could effectively cure all diseases and age... after all swap a few bits with the new old stuff.. walla! New person old memories, no sickness...

Okay, so I had this long explaination about routers and internet traffic and how you can watch it all with traceroute programs and blah.  But, seeing as Waffle's understanding of LilyInverse's posts is merely that the mesh networks (which aren't removed simply cause you have one device sending data transcontinentally) connect to a hardwired base station which, through fiberoptics, sends that data to russia and than emits it out there... than I agree whole heartedly.  What I WAS thinking you were talking about was the difference between the Wireless Matrix as in 2070 to Wired Matrix as in SR3 (ISP servers in the modern internet sense that pull data from other computers and servers to give you it at your limited bandwidth, which were called LTGs and RTGs and such in that edition).  Instead, I agree that communication is still transferred at times across wires, but its not via those wires (ala plugging in) that you acquire the information.  You get it from the airwaves, which have a near-infnite number of wireless mesh networks (according to the book right above topology under matrix 2.0 Basics).  We are then in agreeance, I think.     I don't think that's a contradiction to the SR4 book, its just an unclear item of interest.  Hardwired base stations doesn't contradict the wireless matrix IF we make base stations out to be transmission carriers for under oceans/over big tall mountains.  Satellites although carry some of the burden too I'd imagine.

Now onto the topic of this Forum. ?Lots of pages, 210 is a good one and others. ?Which all illustrate that commlinks are cheap and almost everyone's got one. ?Because of this, you can connect almost anywhere all the time. ?Now, in places in the world where the technology is either nonexistant, outdated, or unreliable (quote), the wireless mesh networks saturate the place around you. ?Now, the places where there isn't so much saturation? ?"... feral areas---urban zones abandoned to decay, crime and poverty" ?Sounds like the barrens part of redmond huh? ?However, "...some wireless infrastructure is maintained by crime syndicates, tech gangs, and anarchist/tribal groups." ?This is where it talks about static and dead zones. ?The modifier that exists, etc.

So, for game balance purpose and what I've thought to be most in theme. ?I think that the grid locations ought to all be matrix accessible. ?However, the modifier should simply be listed like "Matrix level: -3" or something. ?And than we go from there. ?A plot could take place in a location in the Barrens where there is a Dead Zone, sure, cause some would exist, but grid locations probably don't need them for two specific reasons.

The first: ?Roleplaying. ?Matrix access allows for more roleplaying amid more varieties of characters. ?I know if my character can't access the Matrix she won't go to a place, and Sat Links aren't exactly the most fashionable thing in the matrix crowd. ?Although I'm thinking more and more that I'll need one, as a just-in-case.

The second: Is the beaten in theme elements which keep telling me wireless matrix access is everywhere. ?Omnipresent...

And as a note to Green Elf.  I wasn't bickering, I am playing a hacker character.  So all the stuff on Wireless Matrix things, I want to know, need to know, so I can decide how much of it my character knows, but more importantly the more you know about your character's area the better you can RP cause you can decide how much to put into your poses instead of being limited by your lack of knowledge.  So, I was rather thankful for the argumentation (not used in the negative connotation most presume).

Wow, guys, I was really hoping you could just speculate on where the blind spots would be.

That's pretty much it, with the addition that my opinion is that the base stations can also assist locally.  They're not required, but they sure make life a lot easier.  The closer you are to a base station, the more efficently the bandwidth is being used, and the more you can get done.  So a -1 Static Zone it probably somewhere like Touristville, where some of the base stations are a little unreliable due to random gang violence.  -2's are common out in the 'Rens, although that far out you've got various criminal elements working hard to make sure they have good access so it's not a blanket by any means.  Some of the worst E-zones are -3's, probably near the Z-Zone borders, where coverage is so spotty some permanent Dead Zones exist, where even if you've got comlinks you don't have a line to enough people close enough to the base stations to get a proper Matrix connection at all, although you can probably still hack anybody you've got LOS on who has a commlink too.

Oh...and sorry Noor.  Guess I kinda got carried away....

*grins* Carry on. It's interesting.

Okay, to get back on topic if we were to go with my 'hotspot' model to determine where the static zone lie, it's probably most useful to figure out which of the permanent local institutions take pains to keep a public server online.  I'm not gonna touch on every area, just the ones with something of note.

The Joke - This one's a 'maybe.'  The Yaks almost certainly have their own wireless, but they probably try to keep it from extending too far out from the building itself.

Jackal's Lantern - Halloweeners caring about the 'trix condition?  Not likely.  No infrastructure connection, and they may very well wreck any antennas in the area.  Probably the strongest Static Zone in Touristville.

The Skeleton - This is probably one of the main 'hubs' of Touristville.

Redmond Center - And this is the other 'hub.'  Were someone to take out both of these locations Touristville AND the 'rens would both turn into -3 Static Zones with heavy Dead areas until some sort of repairs were made.

Novelty Hill Sleep 'n Eat - This place probably has a weak hookup, but it's enough to keep the Static away.

Body Mall - Has a good hotspot so that the more paranoid docs can perform surgery remotely.  Since they're not hackers this may be one of the better connections to be had in the Barrens.

Squatter's Mall - Another good spot, so the criminals can conduct their own financial business.

Plastic Jungles - Possibly the only Dead area outside of the Z-zones in Seattle?

Crash Zone - The Palace probably has a strong server so that the warlord can get his BTL download fix (or whatever.)

Rat's Nest - Dead, dead, so dead.

More technical mumbo-jumbo, which may or may not be constructive nor currently relevant. Note that some of this is extrapolation and speculation on my part.

A "mesh network" is defined as a cluster of nodes that each have access to every other node, either directly or indirectly.  A "full mesh" is conceptually wonderful because network traffic doesn't need to bounce around through routers; everyone is talking directly to each other without any middlemen.

A hardwired full mesh is extremely difficult to achieve when you use cabling, because you literally need each system to have a wire running from it directly to every other system.  That's why wireless mesh networks are great; you don't need a bigass spiderweb of cables.

However, wireless networks have to contend with effective signal range limitations.  As such, they are considered "partial mesh networks" because some nodes aren't in direct communication with other nodes.  For everyone to still be able to talk to everyone else, some degree of routing needs to be done.  If A is in range of B, and B is in range of C, but A isn't in range of C.... then B is going to have to route packets between the two.

Obviously the more nodes you have in a network like this, the shorter and more direct the packet flow becomes. In SR's 2070, almost everyone and everything is a wireless node to some degree, so you have tons of connectivity... especially in the more populated areas, which is nice since that's exactly where it's needed more.

Then there's the additional layer of company-owned hardlines and the wireless access points terminating off of those (like in present-day Great Britain, which currently has blanket wifi coverage). The satellite layer is going to be used pretty much only for other super-high Signal rating traffic since those things are like 80km up.  Satellites and ocean-floor cabling are likely used as the aforementioned "middlemen" to route packets across extremely long distances.

That is to say, if you're on a rowboat in the middle of the Pacific, your Signal:3 commlink is not going to reach anyone in Seattle.  The satellites above you have enough range to reach you, but you don't have enough range to reach them, so no handshaking can occur and you're in a dead zone as far as you're concerned.  Now, if a battleship floated up with its Signal:9 node running, then your Signal:3 would need to get within 400m of the ship and then *poof* you suddenly have a valid datapath back to your buddies in Seattle.

~~~~~

So, where are the "dead zones?"  That's really going to be relative to your commlink's Signal.  If you've got a Signal:2 commlink and you're 100m away from the next nearest node, then you're in a dead zone.  Your hacker buddy with a Signal:5 comm, though, wouldn't be in a dead zone even if the next nearest node is 4km away.

This is unfortunate for the MUSH, as it means that particular rooms can't be arbitrarily designated as "dead" or not.  The best you could do is put an &attribute on the room that corresponds to the minimum Signal needed to get a matrix connection in that location (determined by how far away you are from the next node).

What supersucks is that in theory your buddy's high-Signal comm can be used to route your low-Signal comm's datastream outside of what, to you, appears to be a dead zone.  So any MUSH code would have to run a search for the nodes of other players within your comm's range (which, by the way, is nigh-impossible to determine in the abstract MUSH "room" environment).  What superdupersucks is that there's no way to take the presence of NPC commlinks into account.

If it were me, I'd just handwave away the stuff in that last paragraph.  Just set a &D.SIGNAL attribute on each room object and have commlinks check to see if they meet the minimum Signal strength to operate in that room. If they do, no problem, they can talk to anyone. If they don't, then they can't communicate over the Matrix outside of that room.

Mark's post is a good one, explaining out how mesh networks work.

Although I think its fair to say that Dead Zones are less likely determined  (for grid purposes) based on your commlinks strength and more realized by saying its determined by population density.  So the more densely populated an area is the more likely there are commlinks within range and the more likely there are within range of that commlink and so on.

One important thing to keep in mind about the wireless mesh network is that it all isn't just reliant upon getting to one person to jump a big distance.  Most of the time little hops are just as good.  It seems unlikely to me that you'd ever be further away from another person (and their wireless devices) than 100 meters.  Remember that commlinks are our cellphones, they are the way we communicate.  A public terminal for calls has a wireless connection, it all goes through the matrix.  So, if any of these gangers make phone calls to gather up and say, "Let's go beat down this here antannae" than the Matrix is where they are too.

It doesn't necessitate big org ran wireless signal boosters to make the poor areas have Matrix access, just how much infrastructure there is determines (in these underpopulated locations) how well the Matrix runs... cause you've got 13 people you are routing so your connection is slowed a bit.  However, in Touristville (for the most part of what I understand) its a happenin' place.  There are tons of people there, its relatively safe (sec rating C), and all these folks can make calls with ease... or so I'd think.

The question than becomes, is at any realistic time period someone outside of 100 meters of another wireless device?  Likely, not.  Almost everyone has commlinks, almost every business would want access to cellular services at least, if not Matrix access directly.  And I'd likely think that any ganger group would want to be able to call on their buddies incase they were separated... and not have to travel 2 zones away just to get matrix access, call their gang buddy, and hope that their buddy is within a wireless zone as well.  So you aren't just within one person or place of business, but hundreds in that 100 meter zone.  And that's more than enough routing capability for unhindered Matrix access.

That's the first part of my argument.  Touristville, for grid purposes, ought to be static zone free.  It makes sense in this omnipresent Matrix world, and its rather populated allowing the mesh network full speed cause of all the various paths and routing capabilities they have, and its just beneficial for RP on a grid where that's the most legal zone. 

I would forgo a signal strength attribute, because your individual signal strength matters almost not-at-all for matrix access (only for like drone communication/radio transmissions/jamming purposes). 

Okay, this is kind of why I assumed that the network operates partially on top of the old infrastructure.  The average person, or even the average hacker, just no longer sees that they are going up through the higher layers if they need to do so, because those layers just let you go right on through now instead of challenging you for a password.  More importantly, you no longer are required to go up to the highest layer, the RTG, to get to someone who's right next door.  Your node and his will happily tell the old LTG and RTG to sod off and exchange profiles, music, whatever.

To go further than your immediate region, under my assumed model, you need to find a connection route to it, and the connection speed starts to drop the further you get from it.  While population density helps a lot in keeping you from losing the connection entirely, it's of only limited usefulness in getting you there as fast as normal. 

Now, let me state that I think either model is probably a valid way of interpreting what we know so far about the Wireless Matrix, and that Mike's might even be what the creators are assuming.  My model, however, has the advantage of being implementable in the MUSH environment.  That's because if you assume that the various base-stations remain largely unchanged over time, the wireless relays between them will, at most, vary by time of day.  If you can vary whether a place tends to be static by day or night, this is the easiest way to go about it (Residental areas will probably be more Static during the day, Business areas except around night-spots will tend to be more static at night.)   

An (idealized) mesh network is considered to be "flat."? As you said, there's no logging into an LTG, then the RTG, then maybe another RTG, then into the next LTG, and finally into your target system.? That hierarchy is gone; now it's just a matter of intelligent routing taking care of the datapath in a more efficient manner than the multi-tiered TCP/IP internet we're all using right now.

Ever run a traceroute on a real-world computer?? It could send the packet along a route something like:? Me > my router > my ISP's first router > another router within my ISP > yet another router within my ISP > a minor network backbone > a major network backbone > another major backbone > another minor backbone > a router in my buddy's ISP > another router in my buddy's ISP > my buddy's in-house router > my buddy.

In SR4, it seems it'd go more like: Me > some guy standing nearby > the dude at the hotdog stand > the taxi driving by > the newsstand a few blocks away > a soda machine > someone's wifi-enabled earrings > my buddy.? Running the "Redirect" Matrix action would tell the signal to bounce around even more than that, thereby delaying someone's ability to successfully trace your node's actual location.

Anyway, there's nothing saying that the existing wired infrastructure can't contribute to the mesh.? As long as it's got WAPs (wireless access points) scattered around, those nodes would relay signals just like everything else.? The bigger corporate networks would likely have higher Signal ratings on their nodes and be able to contribute more than, say, a teeny little RFID tag.

~~~~~

I do agree with NES in that "dead zones" are somewhat of a function of population density.? It's not necessarily metahuman population (although that's an adequate indicator), but node population.? Well, technomancers notwithstanding.

It's hard to arbitrate that with any "accuracy."? I mean, Redmond is theoretically a barren (pun intended) area compared to downtown.? However, it's got old hardwired infrastructure that may or may not significantly contribute to the mesh.? Also, there are a lotta SINless living out there, and if even your most financially-challenged street bum is dripping with wifi-enabled junk then he's contributing to the mesh.

Fortunately the one thing we can rely upon is that two nodes can't talk unless they're in range of the one with the lower Signal.? So you'd have to arbitrarily decide the average distance between useful nodes in an area, the average Signal strength of those nodes, and compare it to someone's Signal rating to see if the area is "dead" to them or not.

~~~~~

In any case, I don't envy the codestaff.?