Harassment, from dictionary.com:
   1.  To irritate or torment persistently.
   2. To wear out; exhaust.
   3. To impede and exhaust (an enemy) by repeated attacks or raids.


Yes, it is far different at its core. Harassment is an action repeated over time to worry at a person. In order for the GM to be harassing a player by denying what their character 'would have' done would require this to have occurred many times, with the same level of cruelty or worse on the GM's part every time. If this is a consistant problem with a particular player...


Allow me to restate what it is you quoted, with the relevent section in bold. An other example of this attitude: The anology was towards player attitude, not towards gear. And, even without considering that critical word, the analogy still holds - they are both instances of a player claiming that it is something their character would have done. Your character would have picked up the APDS instead of the Gel. The thief would have made the roll. Mine is simply more whiney. You were saying that this attitude would be something horrible for a GM to have - how on earth is it any different coming from a player?


Hell yes. Any gear that I do not have on my character is my fault and my responsibility. It's my job to look after my character, not staff's job to help me cover up my mistakes. When staff are nice enough to actually forgive something, that's great! But the purpose of the 'are you ready' spiel is to give the opportunity for the last minute "I forgot this!".


I have never once accused you of being a cheater, nor have I ever implied anywhere that because you think that staff should be more forgiving of this that - oh, you must be cheating! And I would love to see better staff/player relations on the whole; the fact remains that there are players who are just naturally problem players, or who have the soul goal of causing as much trouble as possible. This is why the benefit of the doubt cannot always be given.

But, ultimately, my reason for disagreeing with you comes down to my personal opinion on whose responsibility it is to make sure that a character has everything they need to survive on the run ahead. Nevermore's expansion of the 'is everyone ready' quote cinches it up quite nicely.

Let's remove for a moment the argument that's going on currently.  To sum up, there's a debate about whether or not GMs should hold players accountable for OOC forgetting, during IC situations.  In addition there is an argument about whether or not you should hold a GM accountable for similar.  I think these two arguments are not worth merit under the aforementioned topic at hand.

My argument does not, and I should have mentioned this, rely on whether or not EVERYONE who GMs should do the same thing as me.  My argument relied on the ability to take under note what I stated as being directly related to the topic at hand.  Do we want a coded Ammunition system or no?

The coded Ammunition system does a few things, and I'll illustrate them real fast:

It prevents bad GMs from arguing you would NOT have something in a certain way, because you obviously HAVE that thing in a particular manner.  In this situation you HAVE gel rounds instead of regular ammunition so you did NOT kill the security guard when you shot them, you only knocked them unconcious.

It allows for a game tracking system which seems rather easy from the previous posts.  Thus allowing us not to waste paper, or make room on our messy desks to check things here and there while gaming.  It also gives some of the tracking responsibility to Players.  However, it does not PREVENT any GM from waiting till the end of the run to have you +use/fire/jump your inventory to the appropriate amounts based upon what they DID track on paper.

It prevents bad PLAYERS from abusing the system.  They can NOT claim they have something when they do not.

It still allows for GMs to determine based upon individual experience whether or not to TRUST a player.  If in the middle of combat someone goes, "Shit I forgot my Ares Predator IV, and I wouldn't have ever, you know that."  The GM can still go, "Okay, do you remember the stats?  If so we'll go on from here, if not, we'll have you grab the gun real fast seeing as that'll just take 15 seconds to warp to your storage location and come back."  At the same time the GM can doublecheck with anyone else, and have a small pause, and although bad for the flow of the plot it isn't such a big problem.

Having a coded ammunition system in no way requires you as a GM to distrust/harass your players.  Having a coded ammunition system in no way requires you as a GM to have it as a crutch during your plots, and as a GM you may or may not enforce the USE of said ammunition code (allowing for players to use it or not as they see fit).  But it does allow those GMs who run games differently to do that with a modicum of commands that their players will have to learn.  If the code slows the process down, than by all means I'm gonna wait till the end to remind people to +spend their ammunition.  If the scene is going great, I might not even keep track of the ammunition unless someone reminds me.  Ecetera.  However, with the coded system we have a lot of room to prevent bad players and gms from abusing their badness against us.  Afterall, without you having X ammo in X number of clips for your X gun, the bad GM can just claim you don't have any of it even though you'd never have left home without it.  But if you can +prove it all, they've got no argument.

Hey, wow. Page five. Whatdya know.
What the hell is this thread about? I'm hovering over the clicky button.
Someone explain? No, there's to much, someone sum up. Buttercup is marry humperdink in little lessa-half-an-hour...

Will we have free ammo?->Do we even need ammo code?->Yes->No->You're a doodiehead->No U->Can't players and GMs keep track of ammo on their own?->No->Yes->You're a doodiehead->No U->and then Melkir comes in and goes HAY GUYS WHATS GOING ON IN THIS THREAD?

I hadn't considered the cheating angle... Even tho a coded ammo system can screw you over for a pointless OOC mistake, nobody can pull out the EXACT right kind of ammo to kill you with in PvP which just HAPPENED to be already loaded into their gun.  As long as it helps move things along and isn't too hard to use, I'm for it 

I like trust, let's all hug.

Hmm.  That means we need +hug code.

Just make sure you code in the right kinda hugs. Need them there APDS hugs for anti-socials. And Gel hugs for trolls. That way trolls dont kill non trolls when they hug them.

I want a 'not in the face!' hug too, cuz you know them tuskers and trogs... their idea of a 'hug' probably leaves the squishies with busted teeth...

I'd just like to state for the record that Jurgen, is indeed, a bastard of a GM.? Him and his claymores in staircases.? CLAYMORES IN STAIRCASES!? What the deuce is up with that?

*takes his toys and goes and plays in his own sandbox*

Anyways, I'll put in my two nuyen.

1) Coded Ammo?? Sure.? We're all mature adults (or I'd like to think we are) and we have an IQ that enables us to type the most rudimentary of commands.? We already have it so why not?? Make it with less commands?? EXCELLENT (Wild Stallions air guitar playing).

2) Responsibility/Trust/GMs/Players/Flames?And a partridge in a pear tree: Honestly?? I'll talk about it in my own brash manner.? It's been pounded into our heads over and over again and I'll state it here: ICA = ICC.? What that means to the few that might not have seen it is: In Character Actions = In Character Consequences.? Now, most of the time, it is meant that if you do something stupid IC'ly, for instance, stealing from Ares and not making sure that your trail is clean, then it's going to come and bite you in the ass with Ares coming down on your like Waffle's mom on the Ben and Jerry's diet.? But I'll put it in perspective of our current tirade.? -Every single game- that I have played online has stated: You, the player, are responsible for your character.? Whose character is it?? Certainly not one of the staffers and certainly not one of your friends.? If you decide to go kamikaze on a bunch of troll go gangers because you left your brain back in the step van?? Whose fault is it?? Not the GM's running the scene and placing those go gangers there.? Heck, the GM might even be nice and give you a nice +warning, stating that the actions that you about to partake might cause the death of your PC.? And that's if the GM is nice.? But...where was I going.? Oh yeah.? To me, if I screw up and bring the wrong ammo, didn't bring the right gun, left my zipper undone and didn't wash my hands when I finished, then it is -MY BAD-.? I'm not going to complain to the GM and say, "You *CENSORED!*? I accidentally didn't check my inventory and brough the wrong ammo!? I wouldn't have forgotten ICly!"? I'm going to take responsibility and roll with the punches.? It was my fault that I brought the wrong ammo.? Usually, before every run, (or every run that I have been kind enough to partake in) -EVERYONE- was given ample time to go back to their stashes and get what they needed.? And even then, when everyone reassembled, the GM would kindly ask, "Does everyone have what they need?"? So not only do they give you a chance to get what you need but they give you a second chance to make sure that you have what you need.? You didn't bring the right ammo?? That's your FUBAR and not the GM's.? So suck it up, bite the bullet, and take responsibility because you have nobody to blame but yourself for your mistake.

-END RANT-

And to reiterate:? Jurgen is a bastard of a GM.

Allow me to quote my original statement so you can understand my view of this... "Does this mean if a GM forgets something and has to spend 10 mins looking it up that we as players have the right to tell the GM tough shit, you don't get to do that, that guy doesn't exist now, or what not?  I bet your answer will be no. "  I added the bolded emphasis there by the way.  If we're going to punish the characters for  things like this, does this mean you as a GM are going to do the same with your NPC's?  No I sincerly doub it.  When your security guards when they're rushing to the alarm miss-grab ammo?  Will they make any of the mistakes we're talking about here?  No ofcourse not, they just have a sheet, no coded objects to worry about.  Horray for security guards having better memories than shadowrunners!

And lets not forget what I was discussing...a mistake.  Not purposefully deciding to change things out to get a better advantage.


Something tells me no you wouldn't, because of the word every.  'never say never'.   No its not the staffs gob to cover up your mistakes...I never said it was.  Last time I checked though I was human.  And last time I checked humans make mistakes.  Yes characters will make mistakes as well, but we have rules about that stuff...



You didn't outright, and I'm not going to discuss that further as it was my feelings/interpretations of your attitude towards players in general and will no doubt decend further.

As for nevermore's comments and your agreeing with them...

I agree with him and you to a certain extent.  People should take the time to check things.  But we've all agreed humans are fallible beings that make mistakes.  There will invaribly be someone who forgets, doesn't think he needs to, misreads something when he does, or any number of other issues.  Have you never misread a single things off your screen?  If you've never misread a single word in your entire life, you're a better man than I.  But as I said, maybe I'm naive in trusting people till they give me reasons not to.  Just isn't fun to me when you're more concerned with your players cheating than having fun and running a enjoyable game.  And I'm sorry you can't give people the benefit of the doubt untill they prove otherwise.  If a player is a problem player, with histories of past trouble...you don't nessicarily give them the benefit of the doubt.  Just like you don't believe the boy who cried wolf.

So you  can crack down on ooc mistakes.  I don't believe that is right.  Like I didn't agree way back in 2002 when the MAD system was randomly enforced on me, that I had no clue about, being fairly new to mushing, and never been on a place with coded objects like that, and having only played on muds before where everyone carried everything in their inventories because if you put it down, anyone could and would grab it.  I'll choose not to if/when I GM.  Because I'm just as fallible as the players are, and I'm  not going to hold them to a higher standard than myself.  Remember...you people are apparently trying to draw NEW people to the place.  You guys apparently want NS to GROW.  Meaning you might have new people who've never done this before.  I know several people from denver who'll be coming over when you people open up, some of them may not have worked with coded objects before.  If you're going to be jerks to new people as they arive...meh...isn't that what drove people away from Seatle anyways?


That all being said...I'm not against coded objects...just so that point is completely clear...

Ok, I think this conversation is about exhausted. The message we get through all of this, um, discussion is that whatever we do, to keep it simple. We have a weapons system in the works now that we believe will be as simple (on the user end) and intuitive as possible.

Thus, I lock this thread.