Okay, I think I'm lost...

Nevermore is saying that a +check/gun or +sheet/ammo code that will let you see your ammo, change how much ammo, and add ammo is the way to go.  It may be complex to code, but the using of said command would be simple...

Runefire says that the +check/gun system would slow things down and having separate clips and loose ammo would be better along with having the GM keep track....

Is that right?  I think with either system, if a character shoots off a burst on accident, it would be simple to either create a box with three ammo or do something like +add ammo/player.  I like the thought that ammo could be tracked on a sheet, that way no matter if a character grabbed the wrong clip, you'd still have the ammo.  Right now on SrS our sheet code allows skills/attrs/etc to be added to with a simple command. (well, simple from the users point of view).  Plus, players themselves can add to their skills/attrs/etc by use of the KSR.  So we know it can be done, just have an automated ammo room to go buy it.

But, a note.  Nevermore was not saying have a complex command system, he's saying it may be complex to code, but the commands are simple.

I've been loathe to offer specifics on an ammo system, especially since Erlkonig has yet to greenlight /any/ work by me based on the algorythms I've sent him to peruse. ?But Rune has serious concerns, some that I can justify, some that I believe I might be able to put to rest. ?So, a caveat:

THE FOLLOWING IS IN NO WAY CONSIDERED AN 'OFFICIAL' CODED AMMUNITION PLAN FOR THE SHADOWRUN SEATTLE V4 GAME. ?IT IS HERE FOR PERSONAL EXAMPLE ONLY.


Okay. ?We'll start with the following in the room you're standing in:
A Predator that holds an arbitrary 15 rounds,
four empty clips,
a box of regular ammo, and a box of gel ammo.
Both boxes are single 'objects'. ?The box of regular ammo has an attribute on it denoting quanity of rounds, and this one has 50. ?The box of gel ammo has 20 rounds in it. ?

+loadclip 2 regular=predator

The room will now have this:
2 empty pistol clips
Box of regular ammo (20)
Box of gel ammo (20)
Predator

Your inventory will now look like this:
2 Predator clips (Regular)

+loadclip 2 gel=predator

In the room:
Box of regular ammo
Predator

Inventory:
2 Predator clips (regular)
1 Predator clip (gel)
1 Partial (5) Predator clip (Gel)

In two commands I've loaded 2 sets of clips specific to the weapon I own with the ammunition I desire, and automatically placed them in my inventory. ?This is exactly the same amount of effort it would have taken to type the commands to take the bulk ammo into my inventory without clips. ?Now, let's pick up the gun and continue.

+load Predator Regular

Inventory:
2 Predator clip (regular)
1 Predator clip (gel)
1 Partial (5) Predator clip (gel)

+check predator

The predator is loaded with Regular ammunition. ?The counter currently reads 15.

+eject Predator

Inventory:
2 Predator clips (regular)
1 Predator clip (gel)
1 Partial (5) Predator clip (Gel)

+check predator

The Predator is now empty, with no clip inserted.

+dumpclip predator Regular

Inventory:
Box of Regular ammo (30)
2 empty clips
1 Predator clip (gel)
1 Partial (5) Predator clip (Gel)

1 command to take loose ammo and turn it into the amount of clips you specify, for the weapon you specify, and bring them into your inventory.
1 command to load the ammo you specify into the weapon you specify.
1 command to strip all the ammo out of the clip type you specify and turn it back into bulk ammo.
1 command to check the current status of the weapon, including ammo.

That right there is 80 percent of ammo code. ?THere would need to be a handload command for adding single rounds to weapons (for things with internal mags), and it wouldn't let you slot your Alpha clip into your light pistol. ?Attributes on the weapon will be broadcast via the +check command. ?But the above is the muscular part of what I envision. ?An empirical way to track ammo use and location, of keeping weapon ammo types seperate. ?Its complexity is in the amount of information it tracks, not how its used. ?If you +check to see your remaining ammo and ignore the rest of the info, good on you. ?But if you're saying you can't be bothered to learn four commands that could comprise the core of ammo management, I have little sympathy.  As Dreamer said, the entire system would be tweakable as needed, so if the GM needed to slip you a few rounds it would be possible.  Carried ammo could be tracked via object or attributes, to be counted in inventory or tallied in sheet.  It's not that hard.  I swear.

I think my penchant for going overboard in detail is overriding the arguement I'm trying to make for simplicity and clarity.  The system would be universal, it would be reliable, it would be tweakable by any GM as needed.  My former examples weren't random pitches, they were outputs of actual, feasible code.  I'm going to stop pitching the point, as I feel I've explained it in as much detail as I can manage without sitting someone down in front of the actual stuff and letting them tinker with it.  I respect the opinions of those who are hesitant to see such thorough code, and I believe their wariness has merit.  I only ask that it be given a chance before more loose, simplistic means are sought.

One argument against not having code could be the fact that it could be cheated.  Or forgotten about.  Having players track their own ammo by counting it on a piece of paper gives you the chance to forget to record it, forget to tell the GM about it, and basically end up not spending any ammo.  Same goes for the GM.  The GM after having to track the NPCs bullets and wound mods and everything else that makes the nice happy run happen, could forget that Sam the Sammy shot that dog 'cause he was barking.  Some sort of code, while you can forget to +shoot dog too, would be a little simpler in my opinion. 

Regardless of the code, can we still please have ourselves charged for Regular ammo?  Until we get to a point where it may or may not matter for the economy later on.  I have the hope that ammunition will remain an important factor in a character's expenses.

Yes, your bullets will still cost money.

Personally I"m all for a SIMPLE (on the user end at least) coded system. Frankly as a GM if you grabbed the wrong clips. WEll thats your fault. It's one thing if you accidentally grabbed EMPTY clips. OK I'd let that slide cause that's a really hard mistake to make. But if you just happend to grab gel when you ment to grab APDS well obviously you rushed things.

It's not hard to type Get X and then INV to make sure you have the right item. It's 2 commands that take no noticeable ammount of time. Picked up the wrong one? Oh well simply 2 more commands and now you'll have the right one.

Personally I"d have to group myself with the folk for simplifying the GM's work instead of making the GM have to keep track of every alst thing when it comes to ammo. I'd like to say oh you can trust the players. Well they may not necessarily mean to cheat. But best example I can give to date is one game I'm running right now for Rifts. The players are in a mercenary group. And in the current encounter were paused at till the next session. Half of them are low on ammo and dont even know it yet. Why? Cause they havent even been paying attention to the ammo they've been shooting off. (And I'm letting it slide cause their 1st level not vetran troops kinda thing). THeir too caught up in the action to notice at the moment.

Hell I as a GM barely noticed. Infact it wasnt untill the end of the session that I went... wait a minute. How many shots did they actually get off? And then I had to did though the log (I'm running it online on a mush shell so I at least have that much to fall back on) and I was able to properly add up the ammo usage. A coded system there (Which considering the size of the group just isnt worth writing up, but a whole MUSH full of players is a whole other story) would have helped a great deal. Hell part of the reason at least in one of the players cases is cause he hasnt even really read his sheet. He didnt know the system too well so had me pick out his gear for him (And I gave him decent stuff to boot) but he hasnt really LOOKed at the stats. Relies on me for all the damge codes, ammo tracking etc. Meanwhile I"m also having to track the damage, bonuses, ammo, health etc of X# of NPCs all the while keeping things moving slowly. And as it is I flat out fudge half the NPC stuff (It's a big fight and i'm not about to individually trakc the damage/ammo for 80+ NPCs all fighting each other in a big battle)

So in this case it just comes down to the case that the player cant be bothered to track his own ammo and thinks I"ll just let it slide. At least untill his gun suddenly runs out of ammo when he needs to fire. Most folk are not like that perhaps but enough players are. Either cause they get too caught up in the action, and some times just cause their flat out too lazy or outright deceptive.

As I've mentioned before one thing that I've seen work well involved no coded clips but a simple Viventory (Kinda like the vouchers but alot simpler and all on one screen). You can drop stuff from it, pick up stuff that gets added to it. And ammo is all essentialy dumped into a 'pool' on the vsheet. ANd it's not hard to go ok well you have X# of rounds each clip holds X so you have X# of clips and keep track of ammo from there and deduct it as you go along.

I'm sure staff will come up with something that will work well. THey've allready stated that they realize we dont like the clip system as it currently exists and are looking at an alternative system. And something like what Never has suggested sounds ideal. Honestly it's not that hard. A few simple commands (A hell of alot simpler the way he descibed it by far than the current clip system) a simple INV command to make sure you have everything you want. And away you go.

Personally at least I think something like that makes everyone's life simpler. (Well except the poor coders who have to make it happen) And say one were to use house rules in the theoretical line mentioned earlier of conceability it wouldnt be hard at all to put on a coded clip something that says when you look at it This clip has a concealability of X. Hell no doubt with abit more code work it could even account for HI-C ammunition and adjust the attribute accordingly. Yet you as a player using the system would never have to do anything other than +load clip Hi-C.

I certainly cant call that complex. And I can call such a thing vastily superior to what we have right now which is more along the lines of +load Clip X Gel X Ammount X then check to make sure it's the right ammoutns blah blah blah blah.

And a +vsheet is also quite simple and straight forward. And especialy handy (Which is likely why I'm biased towards having such things) for gearwhores like myself who wind up building entire armories. SO far every char I've had on SR:Seattle (Only two really but still bene playing a while now) have both had different places with stashed gear, guns & ammo (Gotta love them there coffin motels for that. Long term rent on one. Perfect storage to stash the odd weapon or what have you). Sure some of it risks getting stolen or destroyed (Which has happend to me). But eh thats the cost of buisiness to me. And It would take alot more than just one appartnment burning down for me to loose everything too. (You'd ahve to burn down practically every bit of housing on the coded grid at some points in time when I was really paranoid)

Letting someone's OOC mistakes affect them IC is what I like to call IC/OOC crossover.  My character with intuition 6 logic 5 has 11 dice to remember anything, and something as simple as getting the ammo you meant to get has a threshhold of 0 as far as this game is concerned.  However, my memory isn't as good as my character's, and there are no thresholds in real life.  It's an instance of my OOC simple mistake potentially costing the life of my IC character.  I haven't seen and can't imagine a reason to justify a system that allows that to happen.

To provide a contrary view to your point, Tear, I have an above average IQ , a mind geared towards logic and intuition that is exercised daily through work and hobbies, and I'll still manage to misplace or grab the wrong materials for a business meeting if I'm in a rush. People aren't perfect. Characters are people. Characters aren't perfect.

It would be a pretty cruel admin that would say that if you took empty clips or no extra clips at all on a run that you had to live with that. But, something like grabbing the wrong ammo - perfectly reasonable mistake.

Unless you _are_ implying that your character is perfect and could never, ever possibly make any mistake at all?

Erlkonig, to make the point even more plain:  When is the last time forgetting the materials for your big meeting would have you slammed up against the wall in front of a firing squad?  Life-or-death consequences may have a tendency to focus the mind a bit more than usual.

Except it isnt a life or ddeath situation untill you get into it. And just cause you are doesnt mean you'll remember everything.

And as for punishing the player for taking the wrong clips along? Hell yes. You made the mistake. Plain and simple. I mean it's one thing as I said (At least to me) if you forgot to take any spare ammo or accidentally picked up empty clips. But when there are perfectly good steps that take NO time at all to check and make sure you have the right stuff. YES it is your fault. I dont care how smart your character is. No character is infailable. So many people seem to belive that their PCs can never do ANYTHING wrong. Much less make a simple mistake that anyone could.

Even the most professional hardened soldier makes the odd screwups now and then. Not often I'm sure. But they still make the odd small bonheaded mistake. And it's not like being stuck with the wrong ammo is such a horrible punishment as you seem to be making it out to be. Oh noes! The wrong ammo!. Guess you'll just have to make do eh? It wills till fire out of your gun. It may not perhaps be as effective as it could have been (Cause you grabbed your regular rounds instead of those shiny new APDS) but so what? It's easy enough to compensate for that.

I mean even Enstein one of the 'great minds' of the real world made mistakes. So did Ian Flemming the well known author. And he DID go to war. I mean it's one thing if you show up to a run and before anything has started your like oh crap brb I forgot something. Hell I've done that. And most people while they may get a slight bit miffed at further delays generally understand if you at the very least appologize for being late. But if your in the middle of a run and suddenly you realize you have the wrong clips? Well yeah. Your fault. Your job to deal with it. Players allways do things 'their character wouldnt'. And then argue for it when it's benificial but so many then turn around and argue against it when it isnt.

Allowances are made both ways because simply put most people playing arnt in the profession their character is. (I say most cause I've had one guy play a combat medic who actually IS a combat medic IRL). And as for trashing my example of stuff a GM has to keep track of. Yeah so what if it's not rifts? The point is still valid and shadowrunners CAN be sent to warzones. Dont belive me? Read Fields of Fire if you can find it check out I belive the section ins in SOTA 2063 with updates to the Fields of Fire info. But in the end it was just an example. Replace the 80 guys with say.. a 10 man security team all with their own gear. While having to deal with the groups decker and rigger at the same time as running the other sides defences against them. Then throw in the mages who are spell tossing at each other. And it's just as complex as trying to run a large battle. Even more so since as your running a smaller group on both sides your expected to keep track of every last bit by the players.

So I hardly think it's unfair to hold the players responsible for simple crap like their own gear. When their in general allways all too ready to hold you responsible for even the slightest mistake you make nevermind that you have far more on your plate than they do. Cause to top it all off you have to compensate for stuff they did you didnt plan for. And there's ALLWAYS something that players do that youd idnt take into account.

Most classic example I can think of is one game a GMer told me bout. I THINK It was shadowrun. Even if it wasnt it stilly applies here quite well. The group was breaking into some building or other and at one point come to an armored door. So their trying to think of how to get around/through it when one of the players remembeers the GM as having described the walls as plaster.  A simple enough mistake on the GMs part in the middle of everything else that was going on (Like all the fighting etc) to mention armored walls as opposed to plaster. But in the end the PCs just busted through the wall and into the room. Cause to suddenly reverse himself would have had at least some of the players up in arms for it. So you just run with stuff on the fly. And in the end it's not as unrealistic as it seems.

As a security guard myself i've pulled security at construction sites and you should see the odd setups they use some times. Heavy metal code locked doors with metal frames so you cant kick em in sure. But then when you look at th walls? Bloody 'permanent-temporary' stuff that yeah.. you can easily just bash past if you were that determined to get in cause it's just aluminum framing nailed in place with plaster board overtop.

If you are at the Meet still and you go, "Fudge, guys, I grabbed the wrong ammo."  I'd let you backtrack after the Meet was over, and grab the RIGHT ammo.  Afterall you aren't in a big gun fight yet.  But in the middle of a plot, you guys are sneaking your way through a combat zone and suddenly you step on the wrong stick and everyone's alerted.  We are rolling +init and you say, "Holy hell! I brought Gel instead of Regular ammo!"  If you have no supporting pose previous to state that your character brought Regular ammo over Gel (or an OOC comment which indicated it) than tough luck.  I won't let players simply alter around their inventory on the fly.

If you have your description changed to your full body armor and an NPC assaults you?  But you forgot the code to +wear it, than you are okay by me.  Again, its all about validity.  If you can prove to me that you were thinking to take it, than you can have it.  If you did nothing to indicate it previously and now, once in a situation where it would be useful, you want it?  Tough.  THAT is IC/OOC crossover.

So, all players and GMs ought to do their best to doublecheck that everyone has their stuff.  A simple, "Okay, everyone ready? Got all your stuff?"  Question in the OOC is enough for the GM, and on the Players all they gotta do is, INV and check out what they have and if that's what they think they'll need.  If they say, "Yes, got it boss."  And start, than they are of course going to have to be real creative when they forget X piece of gear.  There is some room for change mid-scene, but other changes mid-scene look like IC/OOC crossover potentials that I just don't wanna deal with as a GM.

Which is pretty much the kinda point I'm sorta haphazardly trying to make NES. But again it all comes down to personal oppinion. And frankly I'll be the first to admit that as a GM I can be a real hardass to players. And any joining my group I've allways told them straight up. Guys. I can be a mean GM.

Though I do tend to offset that by giving them good starting gear etc. Mostly cause I know I throw hard enough curveballs at them to warrant it. And if a player geets inventive I run with it as best I can. I've yet to get any complaints about it for that matter. And I can be a real bastard overall. Just ask Gamble bout that one run set in Egypt I started (that unfortunately neveer got finished).

I almost had him set off a claymore mine I'd placed initially in a stairwell.  I mean they were up against mostly rookiee but One professional merc. And while it's a very simple trap. It's also a VERY lethal one in shadowrun. (And should be too. Claymores are very lethal things to play with)

So when I'm doing stuff like that and a run or what ever has allready started and  PC says they forgot something. Well I'm not about to turn around and say ok you have it. Cuase well sorry. But no you dont. I've forgotten stuff on runs and had to pay the price too. So it's not like I then turn around and expect a GM to bend the rules for me. I just roll with it cause it's just one of those ultimately minor hardships one has to deal with as a player and I make extra sure in the future NOT to forget.

The hyperbolic analogy used here does not amount to the same thing. Deliberately taking harassing action against another player is on a completely different playing field than the topic under discussion.


Once again the analogy is flawed. Forgetting a rule and needing to look it up is completely different than talking about gear. And I will note that the attitude that you have just railed against is the exact attitude that players display if the GM forgets to describe something and tries to bring it in after. An other example of this attitude: "I triggered a trap? I'm a level 12 Thief! I don't care if I didn't remember to ask for a check for traps roll - of _course_ I would have checked every square inch of the room before touching everything! I forgot - but my character wouldn't have! Really!"


If someone asks this before beginning, this is giving the player the chance to make sure that they haven't made the aforementioned OOC mistake. If the player doesn't feel that it's important enough to even check at this time...


I can't possibly argue that we're here to have fun. But it's also extremely difficult to tell whether or not someone is abusing GM trust in an environment where:

a) There is not necessarily regular interaction between the gm and the players
and
b) Everyone gets to hide behind the mask of anonimity. When there is no face time, the temptation to try and get away is far more, and it's also harder to catch someone.

"Okay, we're about to start.? Is everyone ready?"

Perhaps the simplicity of this sentence is misleading.? Let me reproduce this sentence, usually uttered by GMs well before the actual run begins, with the implied corollaries made more explicit and complete.


"Okay, we are about to begin a run in which it is possible that your characters may come under duress, with a real risk of harm and/or death.? Please take a moment to check your sheet and your inventory to see that you are at this time carrying and equipped with the items you feel are necessary and/or useful to the successful navigation of the run referenced in sentence 1.? If, after inspecting yourself you find that you are NOT satisfactorily geared up, either by error or oversight, lack of adequate time or other unforseen complication, you have my full permission to return to your appointed place of In Character residence and/or storage and retrieve the items that you had intended to have on your person all along.? Since I am extending this offer to everyone, and everyone indeed finds themselves erroneously garbed from time to time, it is a reasonable assumption that all others can tolerate the two minutes it would take for you to retrieve your belongings.? That said, once you have noted your readiness to continue, we will at that point consider the equipment currently on your person at this location as the gear your character possesses and carries In Game at this time, and further alterations of said inventory will not be allowed.

Maybe the GM's should make you sign it at the bottom too.

I've GM'ed before, in TT and on Mu*'s.? When a GM asks 'are you ready?', it isn't rhetorical.? It's an out, a designated moment to collect yourself, LOOK at your equipment, and see that it's to your liking, and an opportunity to change it if that's not the case.? If they ask if you're ready and you just say yes without checking, you're ignoring the GM.? You're disrepecting him and all the other players there who did have the presence of mind and motivation necessary to type a couple commands into the screen.? You're telling the preparation that he or she went through to make the run, and the preparation all your fellow runners put into this means precisely dick.

With a coded sheet, coded inventory, all the information you need a command away, and a designated time to check all this (and fix it) before the run begins, there is no excuse for being jacked up once the rounds start coming downrange.? Yes, I check everything, every damn time.? I can afford those eight seconds.? Why couldn't you?