Okay, are we gonna have two free clips of ammunition per gun, like in old Seattle, or will all ammunition need to be purchased seperatly? Or is it possible to assume that we can just... /get/ regular ammo? (Doubts that, but it deserves asking!)

I'm all for just assuming that you have a reasonable amount of regular ammo for your firearm. Specialty ammos, you still need to pay for.

*nods* Something I'm all for too. I mean, for specialty ammo, you should have a supply. But Regular ammo should be everywhere. I think at one place they actually tucked that into lifestyle.

While we're on the topic, extra clips? Free within reason?  It's just another thing that will bog down queues, and as long as we're not dealing with regular ammo, we might as well ignore extra clips too.

This may be a bit off topic, but here goes...

We're still trying to decide whether we're going to go with virtual objects or with real objects. So, we're not sure whether you'll have gun objects (and their attendant clip objects), or how we're going to arrange that.

Well, I think the whole concept of clips and regular ammo, it would be nice if we could keep bogged out of complicated, annoying, and time consuming code, like we have now. Clip's don't exactly take up queues in SR3 SRS, so its conceivable that they wouldn't in SR4, it'd just require a big machine.

I don't know about anyone else, but when I had to like, codedly switch my pistol ammunition from regular to gel was just plain painful. Many... many herenums.

Which is something to consider. Even if we use virtual and not real objects (I'd think either way we want some sort of standarized item system), I think its a worthwhile disscussion on the policy of clips and regular ammo. How we should seperate ammo (does heavy pistol ammunition go to /all/ heavy pistols, or do I need to buy seperate ammo for my Colt Manhunter and my Ares Predator IV? Same ammo between an FN HAR and an Ares Alpha?) Should we even have clips, or can just load 300 rounds into my Colt Manhunter, and just load increments of 16 rounds as clips? Have a pool of clips that would automatically be filled as they were added? Have a command to fill the magazines? I think we all want to make sure magazines and ammo don't become seperate items that we have to minmanage. So, however we do items... I think we can assume certain things. That you /can/ get regular ammunition and spare clips. It would save the coder's time in coding any sort of clip or ammo machine, for the most part (Com'n folks. Regular ammo isn't /that/ bad), and save the staffer's time in covering queues for large ammounts of regular ammo. As for clip policy, assume that the character is carrying as many clips or speedloaders as he has room for, and just make sure he has a general idea that he has x amount of pouches for clips. I think we should also assume that for the most part, magazine's are filled unless they were used in that particular plot, in which case, they could be refilled if the character had a supply of ammunition. And the character can also declare that certain ammunition is loose, like, for example, if you have a cylinder weapon and you want to reload two or three rounds into it with a lull of combat, you could declare that the rounds are in a bandolier, rather then a speedloader.

And do it with policy, and as preferably as little code as possible. Gun's should be /some/ sort of item, but seperate objects for clips just bog us down.

On a /totally/ unrelated note... whats with the streetline special going from cylinder to clip! <.< >.>

*sigh* Well, come to think of it, it would be a house rule that regular ammo is free, and that clips are free, since the book doesn't list that as an option.  Going on a rinky dink shadowrun just to afford more bullets might be a fun time anyway 

In terms of code, I've only played on MU*s with nonexistent or incomplete gun objects.  I can really see how a coded combat system would speed up combat a lot.  Just imagine, an auto-judge conducting combat at lightning speeds, calling each person as their turn is up, promting each person for input.  ie player1: +fire Ares Alpha Player2 -2  "Player1 fires Ares Alpha at Player2 with -2 dice pool, rolling 3 hits!" @pemit Player2=Auto-Judge: Roll your reaction player2, or reaction+dodge if you wish to spend a complex action on full defense! etc...  In order for this kind of rigid system to work however, GMs would have to create NPC objects that had stats and objects on themselves which would make running plots be a much bigger hassle.

Such a code system would have the drawback of making people less self-reliant for rules and thus less able to handle odd situations.  And in order to cover all situations, it would have to be pretty damn complex.  Would it really speed things up?  That depends on how simple and easy it is to learn, ie how much of genuises the coders are!  Making everyone just +roll everything by hand works, but combat can drag on for hours "What's my range?" "30 meters?" "Let's see... Medium for shotgun." "Smartlink" "No, laser sight" "Ok, roll em!" "+roll Agi + longarm(shotguns) +1" "Wait, you forgot to subtract the penalty of medium." "Oh, right..." etc.

Now, does all that crap I said have anything to do with virtual vs real object? I have no idea -.-  I was just kinda going along with what Rhiev said.  Definitely I agree with him that simplicity is good.  But as long as an object system speeds combat up more than it slows it down, it's a good thing 

Well, as we've said elsewhere, we're trying to avoid house rules as much as possible. But we shall see.

Also, I dunno if gun objects speed up play at all. But they're fraggin' cool.

Generally, item's themselves are cool. They give some reality... some /feel/ of that item that you have. If you have an Ares Predator IV as some sort of item rather then just a number on a list, it gives that item some signifigance, in my mind.

But right, with gun objects, we gotta keep the cool, but get rid of the annoying mess that adding clips and ammo becomes.

Personally, I hate the idea of 'unlimited clips' because I think one of the major points of the new system was to give -everything- shadow wise a feel of being on the edge. Keeping track of ammo even with a smartlink becomes vital on a run. You can't go around carrying 300 rounds. You'd set of every chem sniffer in the place that wasn't wireless (And a smart Runner assumes some security will be hardwires so it can't be intercepted, or at the very least, running hidden). There are quite specific rules when it comes to detection of guns, ammunition, and explosives and even to the point of how they are contained upon your person to set off detection.

Now while every run isn't going to have a bunch of chem sniffers or maybe not even one you can't be sure that there isn't one. So you don't want to be carrying 300 rounds of ammo that'd give a chem sniffer a huge bonus amount of dice to notice that, by god, you've got a bunch of ammunition in an office building!

So knowing how much ammo to bring, the capability to keep it in a plastic sealed container until it's called for (to help throw off those nasty chem sniffers) and ease of getting to... well personally, I don't want to just have 'unlimited' regular ammo available. What about weapons that only use a set kind of ammunition. That'd be highly abusive. If I am playing a gun character and I get in over my head I want to have that feeling of 'Oh crap, I don't have enough -ammo- for this situation!' or whatever.

While I do agree that it can bog down stuff, trying to keep track of how much ammo you have, and how much you bring on you and of what types, it's an integral part of being a good runner, knowing how much of what to bring. Not just assume you have your full supply on you, that stretches the bounds of necessary disbelief IMHO.

I have to agree. I know it causes DB bloat eventually, but I love actually having a gun object. There's a sense of ownership. They are interactable (that's not a word). I can hand it off to a smith and he can modify it. (Well, staff can I guess) There is a physical connection that a list/voucher just doesn't hold.

Ok, I know it's a matter of perception. But when I've got a gun object, I can leave it places. I can hand it off. I can empty it into something (usually a staffer). I can misplace it. And on and on. Sure I can do all of that with RP, but it's not as interactive.

To actually leave my gun in the car before I can legally enter some buildings leave all the responsibility and concequences up to me. I pay if I don't. I have to check myself before I head out. I have to run to my dos to get my gear for a run, etc.

Sorry, I've apparently derailed the train of thought. Perhaps it is all perception and vouchers/lists will work just as well. It would be an adjustment. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Well, with that actually having to check for your gun when going somewhere or else you set off a MAD detector point, that gets into the whole 'gotcha!' idea of MAD detectors of old Seattle that don't really need to exist. I mean, whats wrong with just having a note that says, "Hey, this place has MAD detectors. If you want to sneak a gun in here, +judge please. Otherwise, you don't have it, and any RP saying you have it is null and void." Simple, effective, and you don't punish good RP'rs for forgetting to OOCly drop an object.

Other then that, I totally agree. The actual gun object just gives a feel to the gun or item that really you don't get with a voucher or a list.

And Green Elf, first, when we say clips, we mean the actual 'spare clips'. Not the ammunition itself, though the idea does extend to regular ammunition. And were not saying unlimited either. There would just be an idea that you could only carry so much. Like, if I'm running around in my Actioneer suit on a case (PI character) I can only carry 2-4 clips of pistol ammo, depending on how many pouches I've got on me. If I'm like, in my Camo Full Suit with full LBE galore, I might toss that up to 300 rounds of AR ammuniton, and 4 clips of pistol ammo. So, theres an idea of 'within reason' when it comes to ammo (and only regular ammo. Not specialty stuff). But that saves us all time with cues looking for a few magazines for your Colt Manhunter.

I find myself agreeing with Pikey's reasoning on this.  Having gun objects in-game does add a real sense of responsibility and realism to the game.

Firearms are still illegal to own without a permit in 2070.  Gun violence is present (more common in some areas than others) and because of this, lots of places in upper-middle class and higher zones have MAD's and security personel stationed at their front entrances, and not every one of these places has a place to check one's weapons.  This said, making guns objects on the MUX will once again force players to leave them behind in their homes or vehicles or else find themselves trying to explain why they have an illegal weapon concealed under their jacket.

However, Rheiv does make a good point about it being a buzzkill for players, since mistakes can be made.  A player can easily forget about the pistol their character is carrying before they walk into a high class location, then suddenly remember that their character is armed seconds after they type the three-letter command to enter that location.  An OOC notice such as the one Rheiv mentioned would probably be a better solution to MAD and Chem Sniffer scripts if they are going to be present on the SR4 grid.

On a seperate note, there's also the topic of keeping firearms loaded.  I've been on at least two runs where one or more players have forgotten to load their weapons beforehand, forcing them to waste a turn to load their weapons, which in turn made other player characters more of a threat and the primary target of NPC's, and thus changed the outcome of the run for everyone.

As far as unlimited clips go...eh, I don't know.  It would cut back on the clutter, but limited clips may be just as necessary as gun objects themselves, depending on one's point of view.  I think that if gun objects are made, so should ammo and clips.  The work of making these items into objects is something left to +staff, however, and as such, the final call is up to them.  On a personal note, while I would greatly miss having guns as objects, I could still get on without them.

I am still very firmly in the belief that ammo should be catalog'd, it should be an item, and it should be realistic in this respect. The idea behind virtual weapons is great, until you get to ammo. Keeping track of virtual ammo spent is a pain in the bottom just as much as having to reload a clip or a queue, it also has a great deal more potential for abuse. With a virtual code, the staffer or player running the plot/PrP would have to keep track of -all- ammunition fired just to make sure someone doesn't end up shooting out 300+ rounds of a burst capable pistol (Ares Viper Slivergun for example) without having those clips in the first place.

The moment you start throwing ammo and gun objects away for 'ease' and lack of 'clutter' you start opening up other doors which totally smash realism in the face. I'm not saying you do this Rhiev, but it -can- happen. When you are running a plot/prp there is already so much to keep track of, that this just adds more book keeping to an already daunting role. Lets face it, it's human nature to try and take advantage when you can get away with it.

I'd rather just have a gun start with a couple of empty clips, or a vendor to purchase them. Hell you can buy clips all day long at a vending machine in SR. They're not restricted in any way and make great paperweights. Does this mean it's feasible to carry it all in somehow readily accessible clip holders ala 'Lara Croft'? Not likely. I'd rather just nip the abuse in the bud to begin with. Places -do- have chem sniffers, they are pretty cheap really and do their job wonderfully.

First... I don't think any of us are disagreeing that places have Chemsniffers. But that doesn't really have much to do with the topic at hand.

Second, its not that difficult to keep track of ammunition. I do it all the time, but I suppose some players might not be so keen on keeping track of how much ammo they burn. But having the sorta system we do now with guns doesn't mean we'll really /use/ it. I barley did, I know that. This being the case, we can say that it may not be universal human nature to run on the low moral spectrum of things. (Look up Kohlberg's levels of morality). Thats getting into something entirerly different though.

Anywho, I think that clearing up DBclutter, making things easier for players, and getting rid of some annoying problems with loading, unloading and doing various bits and pieces to countless clips (Some of us have an arsenal, after all), well I think /maybe/ getting into a problem where one player forgets that his clip ran out 6 rounds ago is worth it.

As I've advocated before, we should just be able to like, +load a number or rounds into a gun, and have it seperated into magazines depending on the gun. It'd be simple enough, I think. Maybe even have a command that says x rounds loaded, x rounds carryed, x rounds in 'pool' (as in, rounds that you have stored for the gun, but don't have physically on you. These could be back in the runner van, or back at your safehouse, or whatever.