Knowledge skills, for the most part, exist to allow people to flesh out their characters.  A set list of skills is much too limiting for knowskills IMO.  If your character is a big ork-pride guy who's obsessed with ork thrash bands, but the only skill offered is troll thrash bands, then... you gotta change your BG, eh?  It's inconceivable that we could come up with a comprehensive list of knowskills that would satisfy everyone's desires.  This is precisely why the book doesn't list knowskills, because they can be anything. 

Of course, we could just eliminate interest knowskills.  If those were done away with, then it would be feasible to offer a clear, mostly complete list of professional and especially academic knowskills.  This would take a lot of life out of +sheets, but who the hell is gonna +judge to roll their "fine elven wines" or "synthahol guzzling" anyway?  Hell, that would be rolling to get drunk, and no GM is gonna stand for that shit.  However, even then we'd run into problems.  It's still impossible to have EVERY profession and academic knowskill covered.  If someone comes in who wants the "Janitorial" professional knowskill, and it's not in the list, what do you do? Go through the pain of adding it to chargen, considering that person is probably the only one who will ever take the skill?  Tell them sorry, you can't be a janitor in your BG, or at least you can't have become skilled enough at it to have it as a professional knowskill?  Both of those options fall far short of what I'd call acceptable.

I think that chargen should allow total freeform knowskills (ie type the name and whether it's INT or LOG), but should provide a list of the "standard" knowskills which have the most in-game relevance- the classics like shadowscene players, the various rumor skills, police/security procedures, criminal organizations, drug/arms dealers, blah blah blah. There should be a stipulation that if you want to know about these things, you need to take the particular skills listed.  You wouldn't be allowed to take the "Military" knowskill which encompassed military rumors and military tactics, for instance, since both of those would be "standard" skills.  The standard skills list could be as big or as little as you like, depending on how much freedom the admins feel is appropriate with skills that might actually affect gameplay, but without freeform skills there's no room for interesting interest skills or oddball academic/professional/street ones.

The issue with different GMs is pretty easily solvable- just have the reviewing admin make the player clarify vague skillnames so that anyone could figure out what they mean.  For instance, a player who feels that it's absolutely necessary to have "t3h 1337n3$$" as a knowskill should be convinced to change it to, maybe, "hacker culture" or whatnot.  Even though something like hacker culture is vague and could be interpreted differently by different GMs, who cares?  It has no real function except to represent +sheetwise that the character in question has a quantifiable knowledge of the subject.  SR4 has done away with complementary knowskills (no using your 1337ness skill to provide a bonus to every matrix action), so obscure skills will probably never be rolled, ever.  As long as the skill names are reasonable coming out of chargen, then there should be no problem with vagueness here and there.  GM 1 thinks that hacker culture should tell you what bars hackers like to congregate in, but GM 2 doesn't?  Well that's just life, players will have to deal with that kind of thing.

This is the only way to stick with what I've percieved as NS's strong (and very comendable) desire to launch without house rules and stick to canon.  "You can only choose from three dozen knowskills" is a house rule, essentially, because according to the book knowskills can be anything the player wants which the GM approves.  In this case, the GM is the applications guy, not the one and only sole God and Master of the Universe, but if you can't trust the apps people to make reasonable decisions about what to allow or not allow, you should fire them.  It's pointless to be worried about +whining because a player doesn't get to use a skill in exactly the way he wanted, people will potentially bitch about any perfectly fair, reasonable decision as long as it's against them.

I'm actually a huge fan of the idea of doing away with Interest skills completely. While I admit those interest skills could often give a lot of color to a sheet, it always seemed utterly inane to me that I had to actually assign a value and limit to something that was essentially purely an RP and background matter. If my character's background gave them the option of having a hobby in fine elven wines or thrash bands, then that doesn't need to be represented by points.

However, if my character understands tactics, knows how to move in and out of rumor circles, knows how to perform with voice or instrument or cook well enough to make a living at it, then that kind of stuff is both meaty/useful and rounds them out.

So yeah, I agree with the above and like throwing out the interest section and keeping a larger, more specific list of professional and academic skills that should actually be point-represented.

Also, in relation to mention of making more generalized sets of skills, I can't really agree with that. Military Rumors isn't a specialization of understanding the military. Specializing in military rumors about mercenary troupes or UCAS military rumors is a spec of rumors, just like specializing in UCAS military or Mercenary military would be a specialization of the military knowskill. Long and short, while it'd be convenient and less point-intensive to make all the rumors in one knowskill, I think they still fit better outside of it. It would be hard to justify a corporate wageslave knowing rumors from a Yucatan merc unit.

Shade

The problem I want to avoid with knowskills is this. In knowskills that need to be rolled, or simply used to show your character having knownledge of certain things, you /want/ to have a few staffer's look at the skill and go, "Okay, /that/ covers /that/." I say this because, okay, there's Tactical Theory, Military Theory/Science, Military History (Thought this isn't really in this category as you could skill up History (Military)) and <Insert country here> Military Tactics. Each could conceivably cover the same thing, but that's /three/ skills that three different GM's could interpret each in their own way. However, if you just have a 'Military' Profession skill that acknowledges that a lot of miliary training is going to be universal around the world, that the military will teach you plenty of things, including tactics, and that there are small, fundemental differences between the Army, Navy and Air Force, well that does the job just fine, in a way that most GM's will look at the same way, if you add a few notes to it.

Now, the problem's with this approach is that if someone want's Military or Tactical sorta theory without having 'military' experience. Someone could take Military Science in College and think that knowing it academically could be more the the Military skill, could think that Tactical Theory, specialized in Jungle Warfare is much different then the Military Profession. But if I play a former Merc Officer, one would say that his knowledge as an officer would encompass both Tactical Theory and Military Theory.

So, this is the problem you have to deal with. Too general and player's might be left with a skill thats not specific enough for their specific character. To specific, and you end up with a lot of Knowskills that overlap.

As for doing away with intereast skills, I think actually /having/ intereast skills kinda forces you to go, "Well, my character could have an intereast in this, and this, and this." But I agree that its kinda not something you'd roll, and it would save us some skill point's or BP's for other, more useful knowskills. You'd have to deal with what consists of knowskill filler and what consists of a 'useful' knowskill, too. For example, Detective Fiction is obivously an intereast skill. Bit Literature (Detective) might be an academic skill.  What I'd suggest, though, is giving additional 'free' skill points in an Intereast skill pool, (Yes, I know its a house rule.), and letting player's pick a few intereast skills from this seperate pool just to fill out their character. Or just giving us, mabye Int+Log X 4 skill points, instead of X3, though that just sounds silly now that I said it. Well, you get the idea. 'Do away' with intereast skills, but still allow us to quantify them, somehow, with PCnotes at some point in Chargen or something.

*thumps the main sourcebook*  Hear the Word!  The Word is SR4, where knowledge skills are freeform!  Cease all this heresy!

The entire point of my post above is that there's no departure from the book way of doing things that wouldn't present still greater problems than sticking to the book.  I wasn't suggesting getting rid of interest knowskills as a serious solution to the problem-- as I pointed out, it just limits characters without really solving anything.  The only problem with allowing freeform knowskills is that different GMs may disagree on what you can roll them for, but that seems really minor compared to people being disallowed from having professions and such represented on their sheet simply because there are too damn many to include them all in a master list.

I would also like to point out that the utility of knowskills has been greatly reduced in SR4, so having them open won't affect much at all.  For instance, in SR3, if you could make the case to your GM that knowledge of psychology is useful in dealing with people, then you could roll that dice pool as a complementery test to virtually every social skill roll.  Now?  All gone.  Futhermore, actually knowing stuff is really not much of an advantage any more.  All you get for having 6 dice in street rumors is the opportunity to roll to see if you know the rumor immediately.  Otherwise, a data search will produce the same knowledge, albiet with a greater delay.  Gone are the SR3 days of "poor people can't connectify to the intertron."  All information is available on the matrix, pretty much, if you know where to look.  So a character with data search and a decent browse program basically obviates the need to actually know shit.  As long as you've got the time to hit that 16 threshold for the well hidden teensy clue tucked somewhere in the net, you can find just about anything online.  So in SR4, if your +judge thinks that your "Aztlan Politics" skill wouldn't cover the rumors of said region's politics when you intended it to, just shrug your shoulders and bust out your commlink.

Free knowskills for all!

Here lies the problem of a MUSH. In SRS, Rumor skills were used substantially with code and channels. (Needing a Street Rumors skill of like, 2 to get access to streetwise, 4 to get access to Shadows, and the pleathora of Rumormill boards, not to mention setting cool +info. Not only that, but it was used to find the Shadowlands or Maglands address. You often needed this sorta skill to get a starting point off to /run/ a datasearch.

And, lets look at the reality of the situation. In theory, yes, I should be able to run a Data Search and /bam/, in a few weeks get the info I want. But in reality, +judging and +queues take time of their own. Its actually why I havn't gotten a lot of the equipment, because I don't want to deal with the queue, and I know it might sit there for a long while. And, I mention again the need to have a rumor's skill to know whats going on in the world anyway. It was a catchall when you needed info on a run fast, and every GM could say, "Okay, roll rumors."

Also, lets note that not everyone has Data Search, or a browse program, or Computer's skill. Skills are at a preimum in Chargen, so if your a sammie or a Weapon's Spec, you often don't have the points to sink into a point or two of either Computer or Data Search.

I think the main problem here lies in the difference between TT play and MUSH play. This is not a table top game. There is considerably more downtime in a MUSH game than on TT. So those 'interest' skills can be very useful in developing and maintaining relationships with other players.

As for the charge that know skills are only for interest, that is incorrect. At least in my experience in Seattle. It really depends on how you plan to play the game and what your PC is meant to do. I know that I've used my know skills more often than I've used my active skills. Mostly, this is because I tend to be a legwork junkie. I like to have information.

Now, the real problem we have before us is will players take offence if we allow freeform know skills, and a gm rules against gaining a certain piece of information based on the gm's perception of what the skill means? Again: the difference between a single-gmed TT game and a MUSH...

I'd just like to mention that I've had to roll to see how drunk my character is getting...  And whether she got the worm in the bottle of tequila...  And of course, the mods from being that drunk relate to /every/ other test.   

I think the real problem is not *will* they take offense.  They will.  Any time a ruling goes against someone, there's a chance they'll go into tantrum mode and make a big stink out of it.  Obviously some people do this more often, some never, but just in general I think that it's a fair statement.  You can't please all of the people all of the time, and that's part of GMing.  Sometimes, a GM's best attempt at fair, impartial rulings means someone gets fucked, and that's the name of the game.  All you can do is make sure that your GMs actually are fair people-- I've run into ones on Denver, for instance, who make up rules on the spot to try and screw players (or at least force players along the railroad track of the scene to the conclusion they've already planned).  Keep those people out of staff, weed them out if they worm their way in, and you're fine.  Obviously this is just a general rule of MUXing and not specifically related to knowledge skills, but freeform knowskills are an excellent example of how it applies.

The real problem, I think, is whether we should worry about players taking offense to GM decisions about knowskills.  It's inevitable that they will.  And it's true that if knowskills were pre-defined, it would be far less of a concern.  But curtailing the fun/inventiveness/zaniness of a +sheet isn't worth the chance to stop some +whining.  My friend, for instance, recently decided to reduce her character's logic and had to get rid of knowskills.  And which one did she insist on keeping?  The most useless one, of course- "Pornography."  Why?  Because that interest is essential to the character's being, while how much she knows about corporate rumors is less so.

Though I realize I have little say in the manner, I would suggest that NS try a freeform knowledge skill system for the beta.  Seattle had a non-freeform list before, so maybe it's time to try something different.  Freeform knowledge skills work great on Denver, so there's a chance they'll work on Seattle too.  I admit, though, that there's a chance they won't.  Convinced as I am that freeform is the best, there are a lot of variables with playerbase and staff that can't be predicted without being tested, so NS should give it a shot.

Well, it's not like it's something we can just try for beta. It has to be coded into the chargen system. Any change we wish to make later will require at least a partial recode of the system, shutting it down for a while. I'd like to avoid that.

Also, if we allow a freeform system in the beginning, then decide that we want something a bit different, we have the problem of legacy players, who survived beta with their freeform skills intact. This leads us into problems we had on the old game, where some made their PCs under one set of rulings, and others lacked the same freedom. And that leads to house rules. We're really trying to avoid those.

So we need to try to project down the line. What will work the best in the long term?

I think it would be a good idea to use a free-form format. I know on Denver they also list the skills just in case you don't have a book (least I think they do.). Maybe you could hold a vote on Seattle in regards to this issue?

You can note your vote on the Knowledge Skills thread, Kaide. All decisions for the new grid will be held here, since this is where both new and old players can have equal access to the game plans. SRS (old Seattle) only lets current PCs in on the fun

I just like having a list so that when I'm stuck for an idea for an NPC, I can grab one of them and base a character on it. Maybe that's weird. Or lazy. Or both...

Well, thats sometimes a good idea Waffle. I mean, when you want to add a bit of flare to a character, and you see that perfect knowledge skill that just seems to 'fit' that you wouldn't of thought of yourself... thats always cool. I stand by my opionion that there should be a big comperhensive list, if possible, but keep the option open for custom knowskills or specializations.

Yes, what Rhiev just said is right on the money with what I'm advocating.  For the primary street/professional/academic knowskills, there isn't a lot of customization possible or desirable.  There needs to be a decently extensive list of "standard" skills, both for purposes of coding and ease.  You can't have a rumors system unless everyone's rumors skills have the same name (well maybe you can, but it seems like it would be hugely wacky), for instance.  We also don't want to have to deal with the difference between "famous shadowrunners" and "shadowscene players," or "security tactics" and "security procedures."  The list should consist of all the standard book skills, plus any that have become important to represent in chargen from Seattle's history. The option to create custom skills would exist for things that are not part of the standard list only.  I don't know much about mux code, so i'm not sure if it's better to have all skills entered manually whether they're from the list or new, or whether the standard skills should be hard coded with some sort of +customknowskill command to make new ones, but that's for coders to deal with

The way to mitigate player displeasure with admin rulings about custom knowskills is to state very clearly in the knowskill room that all knowskills must be specific enough and clear enough to satisfy the approving admin (to prevent knowskill twink skills like "Transportation" which would cover all forms of transportation known to man, from hang gliders to semiballistics, for example).  Maybe the room should also state that any non-standard knowskills are to be handled at the discretion of the scene's GM in judged situations, and you take them at your own risk.  Thus, if a GM rules against someone on whether a custom knowskill applies to a situation, they've got no reason to whine since they were warned such a thing was possible.

This seems to me like the best long term option.  It allows easy editing of the standard list, since it's just a db object or room desc or something (if you go with the all-freeform entry thing rather than the one with the standard skills hard coded),  it doesn't require recoding to alter.  You could add and subtract standard skills as needed without bothering the coders, and everyone would be free to represent their characters' interests in unique ways.  If the standard list includes the vast majority of game relevant knowskills (as it probably already does), then the only custom skills to worry about are likely to be inane pieces of character fluff like "tap dancing" and "air guitar."  These kinds of things are important to preserving a book-evangelist chargen (it's a good thing ) and allowing people to have a little fun with their sheets.  It really seems inconceiveable that freeform knowskills designed in this fashion would present a major problem even though I admitted earlier it's possible.  But the bastards brought back Dunkelzahn as Ghostwalker or something and he killed a lot of people and took over Denver apparently just for the hell of it, so... anything's possible >.<

*scratches head*

So, I'm a little confused. What I'm getting, from conversations and from paged messages I've gotten from players, that our best option is probably the #3 option: a brief list (sorry Rhiev, I'm not a fan of humongous lists that take a gazillion years to get through) of professional and street skills for code and general purposes, and a freeform area that allows players to customize any other(or even all) know skills they'd like to take. Would that be appropriate?