When it all comes down to it, this is what I think we've all come to the conclusion of:  We have people who watch, we have people who'll deny players in their runs if the suspect, and we have people who may or may not have done nefarious things to get a few extra bp in chargen.

This has been brought to the surface now so maybe any future issues that arise will be brought to attention much sooner than 6+ months down the line (referencing Sun's linked post).

Look, if someone wants to create drama about my actions, they can.  It's a free game.  But I don't have to defend my actions.  Why?  Because I am the GM.  I asked myself if I could do something, and I said yes.  If someone else wants to take responsibility for this game, if the staff want to participate as staff and not just as a peanut gallery, I'd be all for that.  But until then, I'm going to exercise my discretion as I see fit.  

The fundamental problem with the term "cheating" is that in order to cheat, there must be rules to break.  As it stands, there is not one single rule in this game because nobody has been granted the authority to enforce them.  Until then, we play by the rules we prefer.  I happen to prefer rules where karma rollover and regenning a sheet are allowed.  I decided that I was very happy with my character, but very unhappy with her sheet.  I therefore retconned my previous use of the sheet (which was not much at all), which I have the power to do because I'm the GM.  I didn't hide it or make a secret about it, I let everyone know.  How they react is up to them.  I think a number of people have reacted by following suit.

I think these criticisms, especially from staff, amount to criticizing how we're holding the mop.  The players are the ones on the grid, RPing, running plots, making this game exist as a game.  The staff are not participating in this whatsoever.  I really appreciate the coders and their continued efforts to improve the game, and I also appreciate the leadership and vision of the RP staff.  But if you're not going to help us clean up, don't criticize how we're holding the mop.  If you'd do things differently, then step in and do them.  I certainly won't object.  But until that happens, I'm going to GM my way, not yours.

To respond to some particular points:


How is that different from buying the quality with karma after the fact?  The cost of Restricted Gear is 5 BP, which is equivalent to 10 karma.  If I spend 10 karma, I am exactly as disadvantaged as if I had spent those 5 BP from the start.  It has the added bonus of giving the game continuity, and it's much less harsh.  The point is, it's not a cut and dried issue, reasonable GMs could differ on this point.  You don't have the authority to label it cheating, all you can say is you'd GM differently.  But if I was in charge of a tabletop game, I sure wouldn't.  Am I playing Shadowrun wrong?  Are you going to come to my house and knock the dice out of my hands?


Simple.  I could delete my character and make a new one.  This new one could be very similar, only changed in subtle ways in terms of BG and such.  What's wrong with, instead of making an entirely new character, just retcon the original and make a better one in her place?  I didn't know then what I know now, I figured out a lot of things I screwed up and wanted to do right.  Why force me to go through the formality of making a "new" character, even though that new character might almost the same and nothing would really be different?

As for why it's not cheating, I can explain that easily: GMs have the power of retcon, and I'm a GM.  QED.


It all depends on the circumstances.  Does the player *just* want toys, and nothing else?  How early in the game is it?  How gimped did they make their sheet?  How strongly do they feel about it?  If someone realizes that their sheet is absolutely wrong for what they wanted, and they will not be happy playing with it, I'd let them regen, and keep the same character if they wanted to.  Maybe you wouldn't, and that's your prerogative, but it's still a matter of discretion.  If you don't like how I hold the broom, maybe you can sweep instead.  But as long as I'm the one sweeping, I'll be making these calls as I see fit.

And Tear condones 'cheating' as long as she is doing it. As Staff, I do not forfeit my right to comment on the actions of the player-base, especially on those that seem to be pulling a fast one.

Rules are rules, even if no one enforces them. There are several core books that layout these rules. I consider cheating to be an act that violates these rules. I also consider abuse of the honor system to be cheating.

I am still curious as to what our other players think of these actions.

As Tear has stated before in other discussions, she will not play with those that don't fit her vision of the game. I think it unfair for her to say things like that and expect that her own actions be over looked.

-Hades, handing you the mop.

Rules:  broken.  Conflict of interest in GMing oneself for cool things:  apparent.

I've been known to award specials on my plots. For example: the runners are forced to jump out of a plane, they all get parachute 1 for On The Job Training. Is that acceptable as a GM or will it be considered cheating because of the +add whatever code we have?

Okay.  Let me get this straight so I have at least a few of the facts (sadly we're singling a specific player out instead of a blanket discussion).

Back in August, Bubblegum redid her character.

She had 10 extra karma that she spent to raise attributes/skills at that time.

She spent all the rest of her BPs remaking this character as well.

Almost 5 months later, she spends an additional 10 karma on gear that she bought during chargen.

She says its fair as somehow she's set back that 10 karma, just as she would have been had she spent the 5 BP in chargen.

Some players agree that it's cool to do.  As an idle note, it's the same players who are notably the some of the most veteran of the players here.

Other players disagree with this and consider it cheating.  Tear and a few others feel that no, it's just a different way of GMing and that things are kosher because 'there are no rules other than the ones we make up'.


So. With that...  Can I take the Karma from Daiden and put it on Sigil?  I don't intend to ever play Daiden again and would be basically a rollover.  In fact, some of you may know that several games do this.

Also, since I'm my own GM, I'm giving everyone an additional 10 karma to spend on their character to make things fair (this one I'm actually debating, the Daiden thing I'm not).  Will that make everyone happy?  Does anyone have a big list of players on this game I can pull from so that I can start doing the karma tossing?


Okay, on a serious note  Here is what I'm implying:  Karma Rollover is dumb.  I'm not convinced that someone as knowledgeable of the rules and possessing the ability to twink out a character in such a magnificent way would 'slip up' and 'forget' the 10 karma/5BP worth of restricted gear on them. And no, I'm not giving people karma even though 'I'm the GM, I can do what I want'.
 
Sorry to space each topic out, just wanted to make sure I had my facts straight.




Love Always,

Matrix Jesus

Rules are rules, even when not enforced, true.  But are they rules if they are not written, or known?  I was under the impression that GMs may retcon whatever they please, if it helps the game be more fun.  I would not deny anyone else this privilege, which is the reason I gave it to myself.  I would not make any GM call that favors me, unless I would grant it to a player in a tabletop game without a moment's hesitation.  And I would.  You can brand this cheating if you feel like it, but all I'm doing is exercising GM powers just as I would in tabletop, which I am clearly allowed to do.

A conflict of interest?  Yeah, duh.  That's the obvious outcome of the Wild West "system."  Anyone who doesn't like the system needs to do something about it.  Talking about it is not going to shame me out of using my validly exercised powers.  It's just going to stir up dramas and create cliques as people take sides in this whole tempest in a teapot.  I know there are people who prefer MUXes to be nasty and drama laden, but I don't.  I will not hold a grudge, I will not refuse to plot or RP with anyone based on what they say on the forum.  I just hope that other players will extend that courtesy to me.

Why are you asking us?  We don't tell you how to GM.  The question is, do you feel this to be reasonable?  If you were GMing for tabletop, would you let your players do it?  If so, go nuts.


This one is a little more cut and dried.  The book doesn't specify retcons or rollovers or anything of the sort.  That's all up to the GM if they want to permit it.  The book does, however, specify karma advancement.  Giving karma for no reason is technically allowable, because you're the GM.  You could make a 999 karma character just for giggles, if you wanted.  But per the RAW, you cannot award karma for nothing.


You are accusing me of making the ommission on purpose.  If I did, why would I show my sheet to people just for the asking?  My guilty conscience would prevent this, don't you think?  No, I am perfectly open with my sheet because I've done nothing wrong and have nothing to hide.  Diana saw a mistake, and I fixed it.  I didn't gimp my own character by ripping out her most significant piece of ware, but I fixed it.  And that's the end of it, as far as I'm concerned.

I don't believe this thread was meant to be an attack directly on Tear. She is not the only player who has engaged in what are being characterized as questionable practices. The purpose of all of this isn't to create drama and get all emo about who gets to make the rules. The players do for the time being. The problem is that there are players, including those in the "close knit" group who periodically page staff members and ask whether things look kosher. All staff can do is say that perhaps they (the players) should investigate. The only recourse the players have is to avoid playing with people who they don't feel play fair. When the playerbase is only 10 people, that poses some very real problems. I've yet to see anyone discuss methods to resolve such conflicts other than to assert that everyone can play exactly the way they want, no matter what the books say or what the co-players say.

For the record, there is no RP staff. If I come out of the woodwork to point something out, it's because I see a real problem brewing.

If you read the previous posts you'll understand that what can be done is being done.  What a player can do is confront the other players they think are doing bad.  We can come together on posts and figure out whether or not we like karma rollover, but we can't expect everyone will follow that decision.  We can promote the pluses and minuses for said action.

Do I like karma rollover? Sure.  Will I use it? Depends on the character, so far I haven't, but I might in the future.  Do I think regenning the same character with karma rollover is cheating?  No.  Do I think it's good for every character? No.  Some? Sure.  Who makes that call?  Not me, but I can help advise anyone in that dilemma.

Do I think Tear can slip up on making character sheets?  Yes.  I've seen it in the past, I see it in the best of people on MU* off MU*.  It happens.

Do I think that any player ought to do anything they dare want?  No.  Of course not.  Do I think people should get up in arms right now because they think in the future something really bad may happen?  No.  That's called paranoia. 

When Hades makes the comment that, "So and so is okay with cheating because of blah blah."  They are saying something bad IS happening, and they are personally accusing.  That is exactly what Noor is saying is not taking place.

Somehow people think that something OTHER than not playing with someone, not running plots for them, not making the game as much fun or diverse isn't answer enough.  So, suggest something that COULD happen without making staffers for rules enforcement?  There isn't.  And I'd rather have a few players being liberal GMs than a singular dictatorship any day of the week.

I too don't like drama and up until this post I had pretty much not seen any.  This will be my last comment on this particular issue.  If someone has a dislike of something I did personally they can PM me and ask me why I did it, or page me on the MU* itself.  If you can't bring an issue to the person you think is causing one than you may want to think about working a little harder at participating in a player run game.  After all, anything that is so player focused as we are FAILs to operate unless players work together.

Unfortunately, in the book there is this little rule that the GM can change anything to fit their campaign. So in effect, Tear is right that she didn't 'cheat' per se.

Do I agree with what she did about the move by wire? Sure, I've already said that.

Do I agree with re-rolling characters with the same name, same background, same Karma, but different sheets? Nope, but that's my opinion. I won't ever do it. Would I let someone do it in a game? Would depend on how badly they screwed up and how far into the game we were.

I do think there has been serious effort to call out Tear on this thread though, and it is getting rather drama llama'y. That said, people can choose to react as they will, that is also a fact of the player ran game.

Until staff decide to become involved with the players on the grid though, the most anyone -can- do is bring something up and let others react to it as they see fit.

Also: Just because someone feels one way or the other, doesn't make that person right for everyone else. That's how religious wars get started.

No, sorry.  I'm not accusing.  I'm just stating that I am not (was not) convinced which is clearly not saying Tear, you cheated on purpose... I know, I know most people around the world aren't used to the difference and I should have made it blatantly clear.  I don't know the full story, so I was not convinced.  Especially given your knowledge of the gaming system.

And no, I'm not going to go and toss everyone 10 karma.  That's dumb.  Like restarting a character and giving the restarted character karma from its previous version.  It's also my opinion which means I won't do it myself and will produce the big bad frownface  to people that I find do... And nothing more.

Anyhow.  Everyone game on and have a grand ole time.

I call them as I see them folks. And I am watching.

-Hades

Well, Noor is suggesting that there should be some way to resolve disagreements about the "rules."  Here's how it worked when I rerolled my character, though:  I let people know that I'd be rerolling, I used +sheetchanges to make the changes so everyone would know what they were, and nobody batted an eyebrow.  Most people online seemed to be perfectly fine with it at the time.  That seems about as good a system as any.  Ask your fellow players if they object to what you intend to do.  If nobody bats an eye, then go nuts. 

So maybe I should refine my earlier position.  At base, yes, we all make our own decisions.  No one player can veto the actions of any other player.  But questionable practices ought not be done in the dark, they should be done openly after seeking feedback from others.  That's what I did, and that's why I'm not backing down from the decision.  If anyone had a problem at the time, they said nothing.  It's like showing up after election day and claiming that it didn't count because you didn't get to vote.  I'm not suggesting a straight majority rule of course, but more of an informal process.  If the community has a problem with your actions, it would be stupid to take them, because you have to play within the community.  But popping up six months later, and claiming you objected all along?  Sorry, but that's too little, too late, especially because more than one person has rolled over a sheet in the intervening time.

What we also will not have is a staff veto.  Staff, as long as they decline to adopt enforcement responsibility, do not have a vote on how the players run their game. 

For the players that stayed quiet all those months ago, though, I have to ask you:  how does it affect you if someone rolls over their sheet?  Have any rolled over characters PK'd you?  Have they been a detriment to your play?  I think Green has it right.  Maybe you wouldn't roll over a character, but why throw a tantrum when someone else does?  It doesn't change your play at all.  Serious objections should probably be reserved for things that actually impact your game experience, like when someone claims to have RP'd their way into being King of the Barrens and they'll now PK you if you don't pay tribute, or when people hand out 10 karma per bar RP scene that threatens to leave you about 500 karma behind everyone else in about two weeks.  Those are the times when you should speak up.  But someone's unhappy with their build and wants to recreate it so they're happy?  That's your big sticking point?  Individual happiness?  That just doesn't seem right to me.

No, but if we see potential problems arise, it would be irresponsible for us not to bring it to the attention of the playerbase. And remember, you are still playing at Melkir's and my table.