Hey all,

First time poster with a problem.

We are struggling with this in my group and need help getting to the bottom of it, as the rules are not entirely clear.

The way we are reading the rules, Adepts can take Initiate powers as can Mystic Adepts. The rules specifically state that both can, but does not mention Mages being able to take Initiate powers.

On the flip side, the book specifies Magicians being able to counter spell, but makes no mention of Mystic Adepts being able to. Their descriptions specify what abilities of the other they do and do not get and counter spelling isn't included in either bit of text as a do or do not ability.

Since as GM I have already disallowed Mages from being able to take initiate powers due to the way it's spelled out in the RAW, do I really have a leg to stand on trying to allow mystic adepts to counter spell, when the RAW do not really allow them to.

It owuld be great if there was a catch all phrase dictating that Mystic adepts get all of the abilities of either except x,y,z but it doesn't actually say it that way.

I need help rules lawyering this case.

- Damionte

Ok...  Could be that you're going off an older edition of the core book.  Your issues might be fixed in errata.  Or you could just be looking in the wrong place.  Regardless, I know for a fact that magicians can take initiate powers.  I also know for a fact that mystic adepts can learn counterspelling.  Whatever issue you're having with the main rules, you're wrong to disallow mages from initiating, and you'd be double wrong to prevent mystic adepts from counterspelling.

I believe I have enough R.A.W. firepower to prove that Mystic Adepts can counter spell.

Why, can Magicians take adept powers?

Is there an actual source you can point too? I have the Errata'd PHB and the 20th anniversary PHB. 

Um... well, maybe you're not using the term Initiate correctly... or rather, well, ok here's something I can point to. ~ahem~

189 sr4 core book, bottom left under Initiation, it says clearly that Only characters with the Magician, Adept, or Mystic Adept qualities can initiate.   Now, there are different initiate/metamagical powers that are seperate for Adepts in Street Magic (pg 53-54) but most powers are shared i believe.

Oh, and i just noticed that also on page 189 in sr4 it says that only adepts can take centering, flexible signature and masking.  Maybe thats where confusion comes in? those are adept only metamagical powers as well

EDIT: I apologize already for not owning SR4A complete via pdf or hardback to have those page numbers available

Your theories are just plain bizarre.  I have been steeped in Shadowrun 4th edition rules for literally years.  I know for a simple fact that you're utterly wrong on all counts, and you're the first one in 5 years to propose anything of the sort.  I think the burden is on you to prove your theories.  Or rather, if you want advice, you'll have to post your basis for your conclusions -- your theories are unprovable because they're flat out wrong.  If you don't, I have no idea what mistake you're making, and I have no way to correct you.  I am absolutely positive you're making a mistake that needs correcting, but I can't really correct it unless you tell me what it is.

Kujata darling, Quest would have smacked you for what you've said. The full quote is "Note that adepts can only learn the metamagic techniques of Centering, Flexible Signiture, and Masking."

It's a little different in meaning from what you wrote

Take head that the above rule applies only to the metamagic techniques listed in SR4. There are different techniques listed in other books.

My Mistake, I need to start checking my work! 

I did say it wrong when explaining our confusion, let me see if I can get this done again.

Ignore any mention before of the word initiate.

Our concern is that only Mystic Adepts and Adepts can take adept powers. It mentions nothing in the description of Magicians that they get the power points necessary to choose adept powers. It also mentions in the Adept powers section that only Mystic Adepts have the ability to split their points between Adept Powers and Spells. This further points out to me that Magicians can not take Adept powers.

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An argument we almost have settled within the group pertains to Mystic Adepts and counter spelling. The counter spelling abilities only mention Magicians and not Mystic Adepts. Leading many of ours to believe that Mystic Adepts can not counter spell.

On the flip side, most of the spell casting stuff only mentions the words Magician as well.

The confusion is cropping up from the fact that Magician is a game term, but is also used as I see it, as flavoring text throughout the rules section. Without clarifying specifically that Mystic adepts who can cast spells and Magicians are interchangeabe.

Even that wouldn't help things. There are instances where it is point out just what a Mystic Adept can not do that magicians can. Our problem is counter spelling is neither explicitly denied, nor explicitly allowed.

Ok, magicians can't have adept powers. If you have the Magician quality, no Adept powers for you.

The rules do explicitly allow Mystic Adepts to learn every Magic skill.  See the skills section: "only characters with the Magician or Mystic Adept quality may take or use Magic skills."  If they are the only people who can learn them, then obviously they CAN learn them.  There is no restriction on magic skills if you have Mystic Adept or Magician -- you can learn them all.  Now the description of Counterspelling does say "Magician."  But it does not say "someone with the Magician quality."  If it just says magician without referring to the quality specifically, it means it as a catch-all term, which includes both mystic adepts and magicians.

To the extent your argument has any basis in the rules, l give you this advice: let it go.  Or, if you're really really bothered, write to Catalyst and ask them whether Mystic Adepts can learn counterspelling.  I guarantee they will tell you yes, after they stop laughing.