One of my questions is, if we're worried about mages being so prevalent, we need to ask why. I can only see two reasons: A, they really are superior numbers-wise, which I've been led to believe is not the case with the new SR4 rules, or B, it's simply a backlash against our decade-old policy of restriction., which makes everyone want to try one out. The first reason, I think, is solved; the second is self-balancing... after people finally get to try one out, I'd think it would lose its novelty and swing back into balance.

Yo yo.

SR4 mages are, in general, less overwhelmingly awesome than the SR3 mage was.  This, however, is usually only true in -group combat- rather than one-to-one comparisons (and, it might be said, that SR4 in general is much more suited towards group interaction and interdependance than SR3 was).

The primary reason for this is the Counterspelling skill and how it now works.  In SR3, mages were primarily teh_uber because they would pretty much without fail, when casting a mana-based skill, be able to completely out-dice you: they were able to draw from two pools of dice (magic pool + force, if I recall correctly) and you could roll only from Willpower.  Thus, you would always have a situation wherein a mage would be able to out-roll, and likely kill, anyone who wasn't a mage.  Spell defense sucked, because it was individually targetted and you never had enough dice.

In SR4, a mage declares that he is counterspelling--pretty much as many people as he wants, on his action.  All of them get his Counterspelling dice when they're attacked by magic; thus, if you have a mage with you, you're going to be rolling Willpower + Counterspelling vs. Sorcery + Magic.  The dice pools come closer to being equal, if your mage has a good counterspelling skill (and if he doesn't, shoot him and find another mage).

Magically-active people are still pretty awesome.  Their primary benefit over, say, everything else in the game except technomancers is that Magic and Resonance are the only un-capped stats in the game; meaning that while everything else according to the rules caps out at a number usually between 6 and 9 (with rare exceptions being things like trolls and Body) even with all modifiers and cyberware included; Magic and Resonance have no limitations on them whatsoever outside of how much karma one has to spend.  In the short term this isn't that much of a problem (largely because the cost for initiation and raising Magic points are now seperate, and it costs a LOT of karma to raise one's magic) but in the long term--when you have characters capable of buying large Power Foci or around the (say)  600-800+ karma range--it provides a relatively unbeatable advantage.

Another problem (and this is probably a typo that hasn't yet been added to the errata) is that spirits are the fastest things in the universe, hands down.  Their initiative is calculated as a multiplier of their force: Spirits of Air have an Init of Force TIMES 5, fire is force TIMES four, and other spirits are force TIMES 3.  This is odd and probably a typo because their astral initiative is force TIMES 2, thus they go faster in the "real world" than they do in astral space.  In comparison, a PC's initiative is Intuition + Reaction, +/- modifiers from ware and such; so your force 6 spirit of the air, say, will roll 30 dice for initiative where the capped-out PC (9R+9I) will be rolling 18 dice.  Sure, the spirit gets 2 initiative passes where the PC might get as many as 4, but spirits are cheap and PCs are not.

All that being said, Shadowrun *is* a game whose history and link to Earthdawn indicates that the game world is moving towards a much more magical environ.  The prevalence of mages and magic-in-general has increased in the last 20 years in-game, and the traditions of magic have become much more similar to one another.  The actions of metahumankind have, as mentioned in earlier supplements, sped up the rise of magic in the world to become even faster in-cycle than that several-hundred-years-from-0-to-peak that was the case in the Fourth and presumably the Second World (see also theme comments in sourcebooks regarding the disruption that things like the Great Ghost Dance wreaked on the magical balance).  There is, presently, according to the SR4 rules, very little reason -not- to spend at least the 5 points that it costs to become an Adept--so long as you balance out your Essence by raising Magic on a par with your cyberware implants so you don't burn out, the prospect for unlimited future development as an Adept while you wait out the process of gaining the cash to max out your cyber/bio outweighs considerations of points at chargen in terms of a pure numerical analysis.

In terms of playing on a MUSH that "is completely filled with Mojoers", that in and of itself is not a determinant factor in how fun a game is going to be.  I'm a believer in providing the players with characters that they want to play, and if the players want to all play mages to such a point that 50 percent of the game is magically-active, that requires the staff to adapt rather than to restrict.  I am reminded of the many statements made about the Star Wars RPG by my friends who play in it: you have the rest of the characters, and then you have the Jedi, and if you aren't a Jedi, be prepared to suck hind tit.  Whilst Shadowrun isn't quite so bad (laregly due to the much much deadlier combat rules and what a samurai can actually -do- now), the principle still applies: making an 'elite' class of characters that are restricted because of perceived imbalances isn't going to please anyone; the key is to balance the game enough that they're not so 'elite'.

You guys are arguing about something that isn't an issue yet. Carry on, if it amuses you. As far as Beta is concerned, there are no restrictions. We'll cross the rest of the river when we get to it.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see any arguing. Paranoid much?

(Discussion is good. Especially when people are talking about problems that have occurred on this game in the past.)

Why you always gotta start stuff Aries? Why can't you just be a team player, why you gotta go gettin all snizzle in my fahizzle.

(Note: for those of you who think I'm some kind of pyschotic wacko who just randomly snaps and attacks like a trained attack pug, this is a joke. An attempt at humor. If you don't find it funny, I'll bite your ankles.)

Past. The operative word there is past. When was the last time you played Seattle, Aries? Couple of years ago? A lot of things have changed. Had you been there recently, you would have noticed that.

I'm not paranoid at all. But I dislike being patronized, which you continue to do. Be polite on these boards. That is not a request. That is a requirement.

me don't want to play a mage o.O perhaps one day to once have it done but as more as I hear they are too powerfull the less I'm actually iterested as there is no fun without a risk of failure and I think (hope and know) there are others who share that opinion.
As a side not I still think that you nearly always can beat stats by thinkgin, I mean even if your oponetn have the best tech/magic/whatever there ar always ways to outsmart them it just takes a lot of thinking/planing.

If I came across as patronizing, I apologize, as that was not my intent. My intent was a playful response to your post immediately prior, which -was- patronizing ("Carry on, if it amuses you", etc.). If my tone wasn't clear enough, that's part of the difficulty with the text medium, and I apologize for not making myself more clear.

I guess my point is (and this is just straight opinion, with no malice or condescension or anything else that can be read into a post, so please don't read anything else into it) that when discussing NS on this board, it seems as if there is a certain level of reflexive defensiveness whenever someone criticizes how Seattle used to be. To be painfully blunt, there's a lot to criticize, and we all know it; that's why we're here, to fix all those problems.

Here's the point: I have been led to believe that the whole point of this board, and the building of NS, is to use the transition to SR4 to iron out all the old problems we had before, and so build a new, vital, fun game. I was under the impression that on the board, everything to do with NS is fair game, so long as you do it politely and constructively. But it also seems that when you hit on certain hot-button topics, the shields go up and the defensiveness kicks in, and someone tries to cut off further discussion. Obviously, this isn't good for discussion, nor is it good for the new game we're trying to build. That's what I was trying to point out with my previous post.

There. That's not intended as an insult in any way, just an observation. It is my opinion that if we're ever going to build a new, active, fun game, we have to take a long, hard look at everything we've done in the past, both the things that have worked and the things that have not, and always choose the -very best- choices... not the choices we're comfortable with, not the ones that we've always done, but the ones that we all examine and discuss and hash out and, yes, argue over. It's this crucible that is going to forge our New Seattle, and make it the finest Shadowrun game on the net. We need more discussion, all we can get.

I ahve to agree with Noor, Aries.  You came across in a not so nice way while I think Noor was merely trying to point out that you ugys are discussing the previous incarnation of the game.

The Senate that we had was to iron out the problems with current situations.  The forum is pretty much to keep everyone informed of what is happeneing and disucss New Seattle.  Not blasting the problems of Old Seattle.  And yes, ironing out old problems will be a part of what we do, but like Noor said, magic isn't even an issue yet. 

We're trying for no House Rules, and we still have to get through Beta before we even think about limiting an archetype.  What Noor was pointing out, in my opinion, is that there's a lot of time before it's time to start arguing out what to do with mojo types, if we do anything with them at all.  Be happy and play what you want. 

I was patronizing, and for that I apologize. There is nothing playful in 'paranoid much,' however.

We're trying to build a new game. No house rules. Much more player determination with less admin intervention. At the same time, we're trying to identify what makes Seattle unique. Why people have stayed and played for so many years. We want to protect that. And that is a very different conversation.

No worries. The playfulness was supposed to have been indicated by the winky-smiley that was appended, but the board apparently transmutes it to this ugly scowly-looking thing. 

Either way, it's all good. I'm not coming from the perspective of wanting to snipe anyone. I just want to see as much conversation/discussion as possible, because I always figured that's the best way to avoid misunderstandings. Plus, I like talking about SR. All of us have lots invested in making this place work, and I respect that.

As for what didn't work versus what it is about the game that has kept all of us coming back again and again, I think that's a very good point, and a conversation we should be having.

Another solved reason why mojoers needed to be limited in SR3 and don't in SR4: their, well, limits.  Not only is magic less powerful in SR4 than it was in SR3, but all mages now have a maximum magic of 6 (which must be bought with BP and karma) and a maximum initiate grade of their magic ratingl.

SR3 had biiig problems with mages because of the free availability of karma- people could nomwhore all day every day for a year and get much more karma than the system was meant to accomodate.  A farsighted player could start a magic adept with 1 magic and 5 points of cyber/bio, and then over time increase themselves to grade 20 initiation and surpass the limits of technology 3 times over while being able to sling spells like a great dragon.

Now?  6 grades of initiation, less if you're silly enough to take cyber or bio.  And at magic 12, you're still within the range of being greased by a tricked out Ares Alpha available in chargen.

Am I beating a dead horse?  I guess so.  But that's what I do X]

Hi.  I'm kinda new here if you didn't notice.  A friend told me you guys were putting up a sr4 version of seatle up so i figured I'd check it out.  So here I am reading through and find this thread.  Its quite interesting this whole discussion here.

Noor, brings up the point in cannon those with magical aptitude are not that prolific in comparison to the vast majority of people in the shadowrun universe, and that they want to stick to cannon with that.  Noor also states they want to keep it house rule free.  Yet earlier mentions they want to keep it in cannon and thus might put restrictions on things.

The whole subject hinges on a couple of key questions and I want to go over them so they can really honestly be considered on thier own merrit, not based on previous incarnations of seatle or any other MU* past present or future.

The first question is... if you restrict it to cannon what exactly is cannon?

The first answer everyone will leap out with is mages aren't prolific in society  (people quote 10% of the population?) and the other thing they will leap out with is shadowruners aren't supposed to be the norm.  However the issue is not as easy as those two points.  And both of those points ignore bigger problems with this issue of cannon.  First shadowrunners, shadowtypes, and people who deal with shadowrunners (ie every single pc you will have on the grid regardless of magic or technomancy restrictions) make up far less than 1% of the population.  Thus you've already failed to keep the pc levels at cannon levels right out of the door.  Secondly, virtualy every published adventure i've come across has atleast 1 mage in it, or one person of a magical bent.  Compound this with the average runner team having atleast one magical person in just about everything you read and you have a interesting look at things.  If its cannon to have so few mages...how come runners always can find atleast one magical person thats part of their group and their group alone?  and how come runners are always running into them?

The second question is.. if you restrict it because of the power that mages can wield are they actualy over powered?

This is a very tricky subject.  In your average tabletop game, in general, the answer is no.  Now looking at it from a online perspective where chances for karma are much more prolific, and the easy potential to get tons of it you get into a rather large grey area.  My simple answer to this overly complex subject is: Yes awakened characters are broken compared to a equaly karma rich samurai at the moment, assuming high levels of karma.  The reasoning behind this statement is simply that non magical characters at the moment have a hard cap they can not go past, mages do not.  However progression is expensive, and more time consuming than previous edditions.

The final, and dare I say, most important question is...  if you restrict magical characters is it going to be fun for the largest majority or in the end will people turn away due to the restrictions?

To be honest I am almost completely against magical caps.  Say I'm a new player and I come to your mush.  I love shadowrun i've got this great character that i've always wanted to play but haven't had the chance.  So i log in and...oh...i can't play him here either.  Now my emotions have gone from psyched that i get to play shadowrun with this char to underwhelmed.  Now admitedly yes there will be some who will just go with another character but should they have to?  People are worried about a super magic rich environment.  I've played around a few places, I played seatle quite a few years ago, and I've rarely seen where quota's have enhanced a game.  The one place where I saw it somewhat enhance the game was the white-wolf java chats, and even then their restrictions were here and there as needed.  To me, if i show up to a place with a concept and idea of what i really want to play, and then get told, "i'm sorry you can't" I probably won't play there.  Its why I originaly left seatle (well part of the reason).

I do think limits could work if held in conjunction with a alt policy.  You're allowed 2 characters only one of which may be magical?  I don't know.  Honestly though I know of myself and several others that would not play with the restrictions, despite you being the only sr4 place.  I know several people who are even wary of this whole thing just because of who's creating it (Shadowrun: Seatle).  Why burn more bridges than you have to?  Afterall saying you want to be houserule free and then stating you may already houserule in hard limits to the number of magical characters is kinda silly and makes ya wonder if its so easy to houserule that or consider it, what else might they just arbitrarily house rule?


You do realise with magic 12 i could throw up a force 24 armor spell and ignore you and your tricked out ares alpha right?

Well, you'd have to worry about drain, I'd think. Then again, I'm not to up on the magic skills.

There already are plenty of restriction's on character's in general that might 'turn someone away'. This is the price of keeping the place balanced. We can't have any Lone Star PC's, Docwagon PC's would most likley not have any real 'work' RP, If you played military you'd have to get an IC pass just to RP, etc. And I worry about folks who want to play uber Special Forces, Federal Agent's or Company men. The biggest cry against this is... well, they're generally anti-shadowrunner, and shadowrunner's make up the majority of the playerbase.

So I can understand all that, though I still think we should be able to create a legal char neutral to Shadowrunners, but that's just my opinion.

The worry comes up with fighting a cliche. If we don't keep an eye on mage levels, and they /do/ elevate into the star's, where half the player base is magic... well... canon is that mage's are rare. This much is true. This effect's our character's. Magic is supposed to be mysterious. But if there's over 50 percent of spell slinger's out there, that puts pressure on the staffer's to move to magic things (Not necessarily true, but you want to utilize the talents of your players) Leaving some mundane's who want to choose to be oblivious or in awe at someone floating about or what not in the dust. Sooo...

Right. I had a point in there somewhere. Also, I would point out that those with a unique or otherwise very good grasp or concept of playing a mage or a shaman should be given some precedence, and intereasting idea's can always be, well... intereasting.

Soooo, there.

Oh yes ofcourse you would have to wory about drain.  However thats still not too teribly bad.

Yes restrictions in general turn people away.  But everything you described, while in shadowrun, is not what playing shadowrun for the most part is about.  Its about playing a shadowrunner.  Rules can be bent and you can make things so that you're a legal member of society owning a buisness or a company man in a corp.  The rules are ubiqutous and fun that way, but if you keep it to the genreal theme of the game you're not going to scare off many people.  If you shunt off a entire archetype, or in this case 3 (mage, adept, technomancer), you've gone beyond restricting characters to shadowrunners.

As for the 50% magic thing i'm wishy washy on your point there.  I mainly play on Denver at the moment.  Just ran a census there, out of the 163 different characters logged on withing the last 30 days, 62 are of a magical bent to one degree or another.  This is roughtly 38%.  The only real restriction on magic is you are only allowed a single magical character at any given point in time.  So theres a large magical bent there.  Yet to me I haven't seen it detract from anything.  I've played only mundane characters there (though currently working up a idea for a mage).  All but one of them was in awe of magic/did not understand it in the least/was oblivious to it.  Its not that hard to play even with a high magic population because not everyone's slinging spell constantly.  So while i see your point I haven't seen where its a huge problem.