I wanna RP being Dunk's ex-lover with three billion nuyen inheritance and never, ever have to actually work for anything. Gimme, gimme, gimme.

Allow me to have a FREE Luxury Lifestyle, in which I can idle all day long, taking a break only to TS the people who wanna play underage sheep and don't make me have to EARN any of it.  I'm a player with SPECIAL NEEDS. I don't have to PROVE I DESERVE IT! I'm not Twinky, I only have standard bio and cyber and only 1 gun and no skills worth a damn to any sort of run! So, GIMME!

Oh, and make it hard/imposible for anyone I think a twink to play the game. I don't like them, so they shouldn't be allowed into my little world of FREE stuff.

Can you see the problem with allowing players to RP what they want?  Why should any of us do anything if we're just given something as valuable as a free lifestyle? Maybe I don't want a free lifestyle. How about you give me the equivilant in gear/nuyen/contacts?  Whatever happened to actually earning something?  You know, actually working hard to get something, actually putting up the effort to get the reward?

If one is going to allow a person to have a free lifestyle, the game should be harder for them, not the other players. If you have a "Real" job, you shouldn't be allowed to do runs on a weeknight. You've work in the morning, remember?  What if your face gets plastered on the Trid?  Fired from your  "Real" Job, Evicted from your Free Lifestyle, and if you manage to get through the day without being arrested, a wanted criminal to which no one else will legitimately hire.

-Hades, better living through bitter sarcasm.

See, theres the thing. I trust the player's a little more then you do. Why would a player do a run if he didn't have to pay for a low lifestyle? I don't know, to get to a middle lifestyle, to buy other stuff? Or mabye, just mabye, because they'd /ENJOY TO RP/.

Thats why were here, isn't it? If someone doesn't want to run, they shouldn't have to run. I'm not saying you give every player /everything/ he wants, but is saying that your character makes enough off-screen to afford a free low or middle lifestyle... is that so bad? Of /course/ there would be complications. I'm not saying that a dayjob flaw shouldn't be a flaw.


Trust me, I know the costs of RPing a legal or 'legit' character, especally one that might do some illegal things. You have to buy at least two sets of gear for one. Can't use your registered Browning MP if theres a chance the cops might swing by. You need extra armor, and you do have to be careful. I'm not saying that theres no risk, or no restrictions on actions, but can't we trust the player's just a little?

Sorry if some of that was a little off. Not feeling too well still.

In a perfect world, everyone plays by the rules. Unfortunately, we don't live there. You know this, I know this. You can't trust everyone. They all have to EARN it.

That's my thing. If you work hard for something, then you deserve it. Not until then.

Earn yourself a permanent lifestyle by playing the game that is in front of you. Don't whine and ask for handouts. Work hard for it. Spend a few months living in a box in an alley, saving up for that midlifestyle in that swanky apartment building across the street. You'll have earned it. It will actually mean something then.

Its not impossible to earn enough nuyen for a permanent lifestyle. Many of us have done it on the old grid. There is nothing stopping you from doing the same. RP your day job all you want. Just don't try and get a handout from it.

-Hades

Edit: Do I really have to point out that the game is based on doing runs for nuyen? Do I really have to point that out? Do I?

If there were more then two ways to earn nuyen, I'd agree with you. But its about RP. I'm not whining and asking for a handout. I'm asking for the freedom to mabye RP a PI, or RP someone who /should/ be able to make the money off screen. We all can't be online 24 hours a day to get all the good runs. We all can't be online until 5 AM on a weekend to complete a run.

You consider it a hand out. I consider it RP. If it wasn't so ingrained in the game, I'd do away with lifestyles, and just say, "Hey, your character would live here, and do this. So go right ahead." Or, "Your character /probably/ makes enough for a rail pass or fuel for his Comet." Its only a hand out if you put too much value on it. But to me, its RP. Sure, we've got the bad apples, but I think the majority of us want to play a character. Not a lifestyle.

Most of us wanna play SHADOWRUN. I've no clue as to what game you want to play. Though I wish you luck. You'll need it.

-Hades

Don't give me that tired line. Shadowrun is a game but it's also a universe, in which you can play most anything. A Shadowrunner, a Merc, A Gunstore owner, a Doc, A Rad. Anything. To limit that and say you have to do Shadowruns and thats all, rather then say, you can work on that dame's case which might happen to get you involved with a minigun, or you can be a member of a Neoanarchist cell and set some charges on a Mitsuhama building. Or you can be a Tir Renegade. You can be dozens of things more then a Shadowrunner. So don't give me the tired line that most of us are here to play Shadowrun. I'm here to play Shaodwrun too. But mabye not as an amoral prick who's got the generic grudge against corporations, or some person who /needs/ to shadowrun for money.

Could there be a less productive conversation? Ever? Like if Lenin and Trotsky got together over coffee, I think they'd still accomplish something more than you two talking past each other.

Well, we're at two opposing points. I understand his objections, but I honestly think he's wrong with his notions. I've played many places where we didn't need to reign in the PB with a buncha economy rules.

I think we need to buy our equipment, yes. I'm an equipment monkey.  But saying that every character on the MU should at least be able to manage Low Lifestyle off-screen, I don't think thats horribly unreasonable.

EDIT: Equipment Monkey. Not money.

The game may be based on doing runs for nuyen, Hades, but the MUSH is not. If this were a tabletop group, and a player brought this problem to me, I would laugh, but being this is not a tabletop, and is a multiplayer setting where not everyone is a runner, nor are they supposed to be, it is valid.

If a person wants to RP a character, and is not in the business of doing a lot of runs or criminal activities, so what? It's not like its twinkage or power-gaming to want that, not if they avoid running. Now if they are trying to have their cake, and eat it to, then that is the perfect opportunity to make a PC's life difficult, and interesting in the same token. Which, if I'm not mistaken, is what RPS'ers are supposed to do anyway.

There should be a status where a PC can be declared a non-runner, and as long as they RP their profession, be granted certain amenities, but the minute he/she/it signs up for a run, or engages in work outside the parameters of their job, at least without a good reason why they have the time or volition to do it, the amenites should be taken away, and will have to rough it like the typical shadowrunner. That's the whole reason why the day-job flaw was made in the first place: because it's rather hollow if every character is a born-to-run mercenary, and does only that to make a living.

Do we have to remind you that this is a MUSH, that encourages RP and isn't just about doing runs and being a professional criminal? Do we have to remind you of that? Do we?

-Chartreaux

If you've a problem with the conversation, Waffle my dear boy, Moderate it. You've the power.

And its the rule set I was talking about, Rheiv. Its Shadowrun. It has lifestyles. You can play anything you like, as long as the powers that be allow it, but you still have to play BY THE RULES. If the book says you can have a free lifestyle, then by all means, have two. But if it says you need to buy one, I suggest you work on a plan to pay for it.

Oh, and Waffle? If its still on topic, I'm going to post it, wheither you like what I have to say or not.

And just to enlighten you a permanent low-lifestyle will run you....200,000 =Y= Which is around 40 Build Points.

Salvolio, I'm not for making up new rules to allow someone who doesnt want to play the game the way it was meant to be played to play any which way they like. The new grid, like it or not, will follow the book.  And for your information, the current SR4 rule set does NOT have a Day-Job Flaw. I don't care what people play. They can play anything they want, just don't ask for the game to change just for them!

If you are not a runner, then I suggest you use all the Build Points you can on buying a Permanent Low Lifestyle. 50 Build Points will get you a Low-Lifestyle with a few thousand to blow on gear. Want an upgrade? Might wanna think about how you can make money once you hit the grid.

I agree with you Salvolio. Non-runners need their place in the game. They do not need special treatment. They have to work for it. And if that means they have to work harder, then it is their choice. No one is forcing them to play outside the game, to not go on runs. They choose to play this way, they need to work for it.

This is not about limiting what people can and can not play. This is about GIVING lifestyles to players without requiring them to WORK FOR THEM!

-Hades

Ok, I'm going to end this conversation because as Waffle has pointed out, it is going exactly nowhere. But I will end it by restating what's been said before about rent in particular and the new game in general.

Rent: It's in the book. Thus, at least initially, it will be in the game. If problems crop up, they will be dealt with at that time. We will begin, however, adhering to the book rules completely. Don't expect problems before they occur. That goes for both Rheiv and Hades.

The Game: The game is for shadowrunners. If you want to be a 'legit' shadowrunner, that's fine. There won't be much in the way of non-shadowrunner PCs available. The only non-runner PCs that I can think of that we'll have are Medical, Investigator (which is really a low level Sammie if you want to be technical about it), and possibly Fixer. That's it. No media, no small biz, at least to start.

End of conversation.