Well, if the way people get around the rent issue in tt is by purchasing a lifestyle in chargen, then we can set that up. But there is rent in the books. And therefore, at least for now, there will be rent on the grid. So ka?

I can dig it.

1) 100 rent payments = permancy (or as close to it as you will get).  After 100 payments you no longer have to pay rent/upkeep.  Permanent lifestyles followed this...and we will follow it in the same light.  Once the equivalent of 100 monthly payments has been made a place will be static until the owning character is gone.

2) Paying rent once a month -is- in turn with what this site is for.  The site is predominatly the roleplay of day to day life in the counter culture of 2070.  Shadowruns aren't the only plots that will result in money, but they are a fairly significant source.  The run is fun for the runners, and it's a memory builder.  But once the run is over you've got some time to burn and money to spend.  Where do you spend it?  On services and goods.  If you're smart, a fair amount of this money will be spent on the non runners (ie support characters/PC contacts).  These are the people who will help you get what you need.  They are sources of gear, information, recreation, and even leads on other work.  But even Billy the supper sam needs a place to stay...and that means rent.

3) I for one am finding it tiresome to hear the legacy complaints regarding trust in PCs. It has been my experience that most policies (and keep in mind I'm not saying all) do little more than offer a small inconvience to the vast majority of players who are not inclined to min-max or 'cheat'.  The small inconvience is quite often more than worth it when it establishes a universal and blanket control for those few exceptions that can and do arise.

4) The new system hasn't even been playtested yet. It's kind of premature to concider that rent is a 'problem' given no one has even had a chance to try it out yet.

Areis: We haven't even posted a single static policy yet. I'm asking you to please embrace the spirit of this project and place.  We're looking to the future.  This doesn't mean we ignore the past....but we all know how things used to be, whether in unfounded opinions or actual instance.

Everyone: Let's all just take a step back, stay  and realize we're all looking to build a better community, even if compromises for the greater good have to be made.

Regarding number one there. If I'm reading what you're saying right, it's not my understanding of the lifestyle purchase rules. Is it just ours, or did it come from someplace? Of course, 100 payments is over 8 years worth, so it probably doesn't matter much...

Kynan: I think that you're either seriously mistaking my tone (always a problem in text), or I'm seriously misspeaking what I'm trying to get across. You ask that we embrace the spirit of this new place, of moving forward, and trying new things. That's what we're doing here with these discussions. People volunteering potential policy changes, or discussing the new policies, falls firmly into the spirit of the new place. Do not take discussion for complaint.

As for the 'legacy' complaint of lack of trust between players, between staff, and between the staff and players, well, if it sounds tiresome, that's because it -is- tiresome... unfortunately, it's also the number one biggest problem that killed old Seattle. It largely shaped almost every single policy the old game had in place, from chargen restrictions to MADs to mage quotas to... well, just about everything. It's not something that we can sweep under the rug. If I bring it up in a policy discussion, it's because I want to solve the problem rather than carry on with the status quo. You have done a very good job (as has all of the staff working on NS) of taking bold initiatives and dramatically re-envisioning the way the game will work. That's why I'm very excited to help discuss policies on this forum, and why I can't wait to play on our new game.  I just want to make sure we're not wallpapering over dry rot.

It's always difficult... and there is a gulf, between the experience level of the players not the characters. I know I'm taking this off topic slightly, but one of the persistent issues that we had is what level the player would know about .. well.. being a criminal ;-). In our constant effort between being 'hard core gritty' and 'super bunny fluffy' was this gulf.

While I'm not a fan of the MAD system it existed not so much for the persecution of the players but to interject that hey, in this IC reality your character shouldn't be doing this and you should know that. Learning through repetition I imagine, and yet even after being 'warned' people did it over and over again. This extends through all levels of the game, from people not worrying about their shell casings, to the five times or less I was asked about how someone would go about cleaning up any blood evidence. The people who don't describe what they're wearing when they go on a run, or when they do some dastardly deed.

The "trust" issue always got boiled down to some kind of out to get you, well clue in, we -are- out to get you. Not as 'admins' but as pieces of the environment. But the same as some people have issues separating their character and their player; some have problems separating this as well. I fully intend to jail, beat, mame, murder, blackmail, and hunt people down for their mistakes or their mere wrong-place-wrong-time situatins, because that's what the world is about. But the difficult part comes in deciding what a ?player? mistake is and what a ?character? mistake is.

Often from what I've witnessed a 'player' mistake always has the worse consequences for the admin, when the player decides that they're being hunted, because their character would have known better. Well, there are only so many gimmies that admins can give before that little mental switch is flipped and they assume that everyone should be aware and awake.

Trust is always going to be difficult on a game where the environment is out to get you. I know this might come as a shock to some, but it isn't always about the players, restrictions, limitations and otherwise are also about the people that have to manage that environment. The mage situation is a classic example, I've heard more than enough times that the policy lords slots of peoples heads and that we're worried about mass PKs or super-powerful players. Well, A) yeah, super-powerful players are a problem. Most -are- mages, this may be a self fulfilling prophecy, but they, the proof is in the pudding some would say. B) There are only so many admins who understand the SR3 magic system, and note, I'm not one of them as the many mages know.

I can't speak about admins that really -were- out to get you. I've only ever wanted to spontaneously kill one PC and I didn't do it, but I sure bitched about it. I see the bottom line as your character can't trust any admin; really, we are out to get you. But your player can, because we all come here to have fun, and while I may put your character in a hole so deep it would take a crane to see the ass-crack of a slug, I'm still thinking about whither or not you're having fun, and more times than not I'll get you out of it.... unless you screw up.

If you can own the place permanently after a hundred worth of payments, then later when you want to move, can you sell it and get some money back?

Nope. I'd assume that the permanent lifestyle would be either lost (if the place were blown up, for instance) or simply relocated oocly to the new place.

100 rents are 8 years and 4 month, just a little thought: if you have the money to buy a place: get it for 1 year and invest the rest into something else or just put it on a bank o.O heck imagine what you could buy for 7years renl of even low class lifestyle ;P especially as chancs are that the char is dead DEAD DEAD DEAD!!!! after less then one year

A good idea licenser. Before you buy all that ammo in CG, make sure you set aside at least a month's worth of rent money if not more. That way you're not homeless the second you hit the grid with all your gear on you.

-Hades

How about setting it up so that you can rent (up to a certain amount like 3 months) for a certain lifestyle during chargen for a cheaper cost.  That way, it can help players who wants to play at a higher living standard a chance to set themselves up and have money rolling in instead of, oh... i have thousands of worth of cybers and my bg says i'm well off and have a daytime job but i live like a squatter.

(or... this one i prefer more...)
Or have a certain amount of stipend come in only to be used for living cost and only if you have a daytime job.  That would also prevent anyone from abusing it by trying to live a luxurious life. (they would probably have to have a low key job therefore low pay so that they wouldn't be recognized easiy and they would have the penalty if their identities are found out.) Also, if they want to move to luxurious, they would have to quit the job and become a shadowrunner in full because they would not be able to explain how they are making so much money when they are garbage collectors or something.  And once that happens, they can't go back to their jobs.

This, imho would make things more user friendly, less worrying, and really... keep a lot of real reality that we try to escape from by coming into the mush out.

P.S. - i would have posted this in suggestions but as there was already a post on this subject here, here i placed. Please note that this was presented in a neutral manner and only represents my thoughts for people to think about.

Hades, I was not thinking about CG money I was thinking about stuff people eraned themself ICly on the grid hell if I would have the money to buy me 8 years of housing ICly I would do a hell and pay it all at once, just imagine I get in trouble and have to dump the flat? I would bite my ass for payint 8 years in adnave

See, now heres something I'd agree with, playing a character with a dayjob and all (No, not all my character concepts have a dayjob integral too them. In fact, Rheiv's job started as simply a 'cover' but seems to work much better as an actual occupation). Its not a good dayjob, but it should be enough to pay the bills. And saying that, it doesn't always make things easier. SINner is a flaw for a reason, even if it does give me an extra 5 BP. Rheiv has to generally keep multiple sets of gear (One Legal, One Illegal) avoid interacting with too much of the criminal element, and keep any Merc-work and Legal Detective work clearly seperate, to avoid getting hit by a sting. He's much less a shadowrunner with a day job, or a man living a double life, and much more a Private Detective who's not afraid to take a below-the-boards case or do something illiegal to get a good job done.

Not to mention that I /do/ RP the dayjob as well, and this should be a requirment. If your character's got a dayjob as a garbage collector, he'd better RP collecting garbage, or at least going to the bar in his dirty coverall's once in a while. It is shadowrun, so you often can't have the best of both worlds, but lets remember that Dayjob and SINner are flaws for a reason.  Its not just 'free money' or 'legal credentials'.

Thats the point thats trying to be made here. We're not looking for free money, or twinking out. Twinking out is getting a high or luxery lifestyle, so you get a buncha bonuses with security and what not. Low or Middle lifestyles are often necessary to say, "Hey, look. My characters getting some soykrill at the local vending machine." or "Good thing I broght some chump change for a pair of flats." or simply RPing your house automating everything. I'm not asking for free twinkism, but the focus of the game is RP. Sure, equipment is good, but if we enforce lifestyle as a goal to be earned, we have to focus on doing runs /strictly/ for the nuyen and karma. Which isn't why we should be doing runs.

I don't mean /all/ that so literally, but I'm sure some of you folks get my meaning.

So, right

Thread cybermancy powers, activate!

Lifestyle payments, as in tabletop, are the flickering flames that slowly burn away your nuyen and forces your complacent rear out onto the street to do stuff.  In OOC terms, it makes you play the game rather than using the site as a chat room.

I've been hearing objections to lifestyle payments for years and years.   Most of them are prompted by someone either forgetting to pay rent (despite the multiple warnings the system gave) and/or just not logging in for extended periods so their apartments timed out.  Yes, it's inconvenient when that happens.   It's supposed to be, so you'll care enough to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Seriously, what massive online game out there nowadays doesn't have both an economy and a money sink?  This is the same thing.

My last guy sank (slightly under) 60k for a year's worth of middle lifestyle all at once.  I figured that if I was still playing him after a year, then I'd probably have enough money to renew.  If not, then his apartment and gear within were welcome to go poof.

I earned by money by having a small business as well as working side jobs.  I never had a problem keeping up payments.

Well, heres the thing, the way I see things (excause if non-sensical. I be sick). Now, yes, it does get you up to do things. And yes, every MMORPG has an economy and a money sink, but NS differes from this in that it has an automated money sink, but no automated economy. Not only that, but the things you can do for cash are limited to Shadowruns.... and shadowruns. Sure, mabye you'll have the odd PC paying for a Weapon Spec character to fix a gun for them, but for that to be any sizable chunk of nuyen, there needs to be a large player base and a demand for such services.

Now yes, this boils down to the "Why can't I just RP in the universe without having to be a big uber-criminal." And of course the inevitable answer is, "Being an uber-criminal is the game! Tough!" Which would be something I would have to disagree on, but bleh.

In summary, I disagree in an automated money sink without an automated economy. Pay PC's automatically for work, toss in an auto run, and then its fine. Of course, this makes it more like a MUD in some respects, which we want to avoid.

In the end, I just don't see a big problem is letting a player RP the character he wants to RP. We have to get away from not trusting the player's to be true to characters and less then twinks. We have to foster a culture thats hostile to PGers and twinks in the fact that they should find it difficult to find RP, not keep up the automated payments.

I'm gonna go back to trying not to breath too sharply now.